Thoughts about CNC locks

[rich pierce]

It’s exciting to see machined locks being offered now. Very cool. I wonder, “Why is this possible now?”  There may be multiple factors.

Is CNC-ing of complex shapes more affordable for small shops now?  Is the programming more user-friendly? Do we have a new generation of younger-ish creative suppliers willing and able to try and risk more?  Will we ever get to the place where somebody who wants to offer small volume locks would go this route versus offering sets of castings?

[WadePatton]

I'm no Jim, but I was pretty sure he'd be onto this after getting set up to do the stocks.

Technology improvements surely helped, but there had to be a person willing to risk all the development work for such a tiny market.  Is also a non-essential market which means if things get tight, sales will suffer-unlike the necessities markets of food and automotive and cogs of industry.  This added risk probably kept more from venturing out?

Maybe in a few years we can call up Jim and discuss just which of many dozens of patterns he has in catalog to CNC for our pet projects.  I'm glad he's made the leap, and maybe the size of the market itself will keep nippers off his heels for a little while.

As to small shops and CNC gear--there's always going to be setup time costs such that the longer the run the lower the costs per part, so there's that. But as foundries require larger and larger orders and give us slightly crude metal we have to sort out, CNC may become the best option.  This is micro-industry too, so maybe it won't get all shipped off to the current production centers of the world.

[G_T]

The hardware capable of carrying out the machining could be as small as a Taig desktop CNC mill. Something like a TORMACH or HAAS is not that expensive now in the scheme of things. CNC machines used to cost 6 to 7 figures... Software to do the CAD is not as expensive either. You still have to go through the work of the design, or use a probe and make a duplication of another lock (probable cleanup required IMHO).

Prototyping is an advantage for CNC. The testing and tweaking cycle isn't as expensive as having new molds produced! But interestingly, CAD can often simulate parts motion very accurately, so fewer prototypes may be needed.

I'm going to speculate that in a decade or so, we'll likely see primarily CNC locks. The hand made locks like the recently posted English Siler conversion will be the ones commanding the premium, as they should! IMHO, of course. Hand made locks will always have a certain degree of uniqueness.

Gerald

[Hungry Horse]

Nobody casts their own lock parts. These are all small batch runs, done when foundries get around to it. What looks like a usable part to the foundry may not be. The material used may, or may not be the grade of steel, or alloy, you requested. So, if you can take the foundry out of the equation, you can control production schedules, material, and overall quality, because its all in house. CNC equipment has progressed to the point that although it not cheap, its no long a novelty item, that demands a premium price. Also there are just a lot more workers in the labor force now that have the skills to operate this equipment. I applaud this move, and believe it will make cast parts locks and triggers obsolete.

  Hungry Horse

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks for the topic, Rich. 

Why is cnc machining locks available now? 

It's been available for quite a while, but myself and Chris Laubach have just recently taken advantage of it.  Equipment is more affordable now and software is more powerful and much more affordable.  The truth is this could have been done a long time ago, but this is a niche market and a traditional one at that.  People don't embrace technology all that much.  It's required considerable investment on our part; moreso than anyone else I'm aware of.  We own our own CNC equipment and I don't think anyone else does for this sort of work.  Jason Schneider at Rice uses CNC for rifling and barrel profiling as well.  We've of couse been using CNC to make stocks for several years.  I believe Chris was fortunate to find a talented and willing source to machine his parts.  Regardless, it's a big bite to take for likely modest rewards.  Personally financial reward is a goal, but also just the satisfaction of making a part how I think it "should be".

To the point of quality, using castings for locks have been proven to work based on the tens of thousands of locks produced.  A large part of the equation is also of course how these castings are put together.  But there are better ways in my view, especially for critical parts of the lock mechanism.  This community is small and personally, we are friends with those who have produced locks using more common methods.  In many ways these locks as a whole have performed well and at a reasonable price, but to be perfectly honest there has always been talk in the background about quality and frustration.  Especially with those who work at a high level and have high level expectations.   So this is where we're at today.  Trying to do this better...  In truth, this is probaby the biggest motivation.

Jim

[nemovir]

Using state of the art equipment to build obsolete firearms.... only in America!

[mountainman70]

Using state of the art equipment to build obsolete firearms.... only in America!

Because WE CAN !!!!  Thanks Mr Kibler. Now, about those flint Golcher locks---------- 
Best regards, Dave F

[chris laubach]

It’s exciting to see machined locks being offered now. Very cool. I wonder, “Why is this possible now?”  There may be multiple factors.

Is CNC-ing of complex shapes more affordable for small shops now?  Is the programming more user-friendly? Do we have a new generation of younger-ish creative suppliers willing and able to try and risk more?  Will we ever get to the place where somebody who wants to offer small volume locks would go this route versus offering sets of castings?

Good Question Rich,
Jim as always is spot on. It has been there for a long time...20 years ago before I became a development Eng. I was a tool & die maker. We where using CNC equipment at this time but it has defiantly changed as with most technology related items they become easier and less expensive to use as technology progresses... However the more complex the geometry the more expensive the parts. A perfect example of this is the cock and the frizzen.. two somewhat complex parts to cut. I am having these parts cut from solid bar stock on a 5 axis mill and they come to me with no work needed...simply polish and go... The other nice thing about using the CNC process is it is very simple to make left hand locks should one desire. Once the programing is done it takes little time (10-15 min) to change it for left hand.

Thanks
Chris

[westbrook]

.....The other nice thing about using the CNC process is it is very simple to make left hand locks should one desire. Once the programing is done it takes little time (10-15 min) to change it for left hand.....


You have no idea how nice that sounds!!!

[Ezra]

Jim,

What are the dimensions of your new lock?  Forgive me if you’ve already provided this.

Ez

[kudu]

Chris is right we been able to do this for "at least" 20-25 years. Im a Journeymen Machinist and can remember CNC machines that used "Punched Tape" we had thousands of little canisters with Paper tape in them for each Program/Job.
Now the Haas Machining center has graphics a mirror image   "G"  code  Multiple and different X-Y zeros if you want them. It's easier, But it still takes days and week's  of work before anything good comes out.  Especially if your building parts like JIM and CHRIS.

Alot of People can write the code and watch the graphics with the tool changes  and offsets and so on.
BUTT they  dont get the idea of how We going to hold - "Are" part which side we going to start with, can we do this with Three custom Fixtures.
Oh yea, Do We have to Make Our Fixtures mostly on a Manual Machine Or do you have a code for Them too?
Or does it have so many operations that we need Six fixtures? 
Gee I dont Know? Maybe these parts are just too much work how many we going to sell?  and for how  much?
By the way do we have any more 1/16  Endmills I just broke another one I think the part is "chattering" a little" we might need to fix up something to make it more ridged.

If you really want to have Nightmares open the back of a Old Pocket Watch made before CNC'S I really cant imagine how they did it!!

I commend your accomplishments a lot more work than most people know.
Adam.

[Gun_Nut_73]

I was an NC programmer and operator for years, back when Gerber and Dozier were the top names, and an IBM or HP computer was the size of a refrigerator.  Before automatic offset programming, we had to calculate the center of the spindle position, relative to the edge we wanted to achieve.  Toss in tool wear, speed, material thickness, deflection, etc, etc, and it took a lot of calculating with a slide rule, and anyone with a 4 function handheld calculator felt like a God.  I used to be good at math, so I was the one who wound up programming all the oddball shapes.

[blackbruin]

It’s exciting to see machined locks being offered now. Very cool. I wonder, “Why is this possible now?”  There may be multiple factors.

Is CNC-ing of complex shapes more affordable for small shops now?  Is the programming more user-friendly? Do we have a new generation of younger-ish creative suppliers willing and able

Good Question Rich,
Jim as always is spot on. It has been there for a long time...20 years ago before I became a development Eng. I was a tool & die maker. We where using CNC equipment at this time but it has defiantly changed as with most technology related items they become easier and less expensive to use as technology progresses... However the more complex the geometry the more expensive the parts. A perfect example of this is the cock and the frizzen.. two somewhat complex parts to cut. I am having these parts cut from solid bar stock on a 5 axis mill and they come to me with no work needed...simply polish and go... The other nice thing about using the CNC process is it is very simple to make left hand locks should one desire. Once the programing is done it takes little time (10-15 min) to change it for left hand.

Thanks
Chris

Finally left handedness will no longer be a crutch to us.....
Mark me down for a couple chris to get to that 100 quota!

[44-henry]

It is a niche market and though the machines have become less expensive they certainly are not cheap. I have a new Haas machining center coming in next week that even with generous educational discount that Haas provides is still costing us over 40K and that is on the low end for this type of equipment.  Add the necessary CAD/CAM software, tooling, etc. and watch the price soar several thousand dollars higher. Even with all that expenditure the equipment is not much use if you don't know how to run it, and a flintlock mechanism is not the ideal first project to start your learning with.

[Long John]

Eventually, additive manufacturing will become available for this industry.  Additive manufacturing is revolutionizing the aircraft industry as well as the medical device industries.  Eventually AM will compete head-to-head with CNC.  I have recently done hazard management projects for AM centers that will host hundreds of additive manufacturing machines each cranking out a build every 12 to 18 hours, non-stop.  Most of the work right now is titanium, and stainless steels, but the technology is equally applicable to mild steel alloys.

It is an exciting time!

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

[Dan Fruth]

I was fortunate enough to work as a tool and die maker, and our Kondia "user friendly" CNC machines required a lot of "head work" to do what we wanted, and when the first 5 axis machine was purchased, along with the designers getting the software to convert cad-cam drawings  into tool paths for the machine, I became extinct! I approached my boss about making locks, and he responded "that's a basement shop project, we are doing space-age work and not interested" I think that's why this has not happened until now, and the right men with the know-how, as well as the "want to" have stepped up to the plate, and we all should be glad they have. I still appreciate cast locks, and assembly is always a big part of that equation, but the "new old stock" cnc locks are filling another small nitch in our wonderful hobby. Just remember, as the late Dave Dodds told me once..."If Boone were alive today, he'd throw away a flintlock and get a 30 ought 6" We are all trying to relive a bygone era, and these new locks will add to that, IMHO...….Dan

[Chris Evrard]

Here are a few thoughts from a CNC machinist and a lock builder.

Back in 2004, when I was just getting into machining, I asked Jim Chambers why there weren't any cnc'd locks or lock parts available. His basic answer was, price. The industry has changed a lot in the ensuing 15 years. For example, one of the machine shops I worked in used to have about 50 men on the payroll working 3 shifts around the clock. By the time I started there, the same output only needed 15 men, working 2 shifts. The price to manufacture many flintlock parts in the basically "small" quantities this industry requires, has started to become more economically feasible.

At this point in time there are three main categories of lock manufacture. They include Cast, Hybrid (using both cast and cnc'd parts) and fully CNC'd. (I am purposely leaving out custom and hand forged locks here)

Everyone in this hobby knows cast locks as they account for the majority of locks. Casting is relatively inexpensive (comparatively anyhow) but secondary operations to prep and assemble can be quite time consuming.

Hybrid locks are logically the next step. Improving the precision of some of the internal parts via cnc has many advantages. Increased interchangability, ease of manufacture, consistency, etc. As a lock builder I welcome this change! But, costs go up, or profit goes down as compared to a cast lock.

Hybrids are a nice "middle of the road" compromise in manufacturing. The most complex parts (shape wise) are the hammer/cock and the frizzen. Depending on the lock, the top jaw and the lock plate (round faced and/or integral pan) can also be complicated from a CNC perspective. A lot of money can be saved by casting these parts. In order to CNC these parts without the cost going through the roof, requires a 5 axis machine (most machines being 3 axis). 5 axis machines are still relatively expensive as compared to 3 axis, and generating the code to run the machines is also much more intensive, fixturing parts is different along  with many other considerations.

So as an example of a hybrid, take Jim Kibler's new offering. He lists the hammer, frizzen and top jaw as being cast. (I am fairly certain that Jim K's lock plate is cast as well, and the internal surfaces, screw holes, etc are CNC'd and/or surface ground. maybe Jim K will confirm -- UPDATE** I WAS WRONG! Lol) This makes perfect sense for a hybrid, and is the best of both worlds from a manufacturing standpoint. It similar to the direction which Chambers locks have been moving. Casting the complex parts and machining the rest is a big step up and I think we'll see more and more locks produced in this fashion. As well as other lock manufacturers moving in this direction over the next years.

So that takes us to fully CNC'd locks. The only one I am currently aware of is Chris Laubach's offering. (if anyone knows of another please let me/us know) This is far and away the most expensive option to produce for all of the previously mentioned reasons. I did have a chance to handle Chris' offering at Dixon's this year and it is impressive. As a cnc machinist, machining nerd and lock builder/enthusiast I was looking forward to seeing the quality of the 5 axis machining on the (complex) hammer, top jaw and frizzen. It did not disappoint. But we all know that type of machining and quality costs more money. I think we'll also see more fully CNC'd locks come on line over the next years, but price wise they won't be for everyone.

A few other notes/thoughts:

-springs: I haven't even broached the topic of springs. But they can be and CNC'd.  That is a whole other can of worms. Cast, milled or forged they all have their different personalities, but the topic here was CNC parts so I'll leave that one alone.

-Left Handed Locks: One other advantage to fully CNC'd locks is the relative ease (as compared to cast) of converting your code to make left handed parts. It is a simple matter to "mirror" your CAD drawings and generate the code necessary for manufacture. So that is a plus in the CNC column that the Hybrid and Cast locks don't have.

-Materials, Tooling and Skill: Not all CNC parts are equal. Just like any other endeavor, metals (materials), the skill of the machinist, appropriate and well maintained tooling, etc. all play a part.

Boy, that was a rant...... I'd better go to the shop and make some money!

Best,

Chris E.

[Jim Kibler]

No, the plate is fully 100% machined from barstock!  This is the foundation of the whole assembly.  Many parts reference off of the plate and it must be right.  One could argue you could start with a casting and then machine critical areas, but there are problems with this approach.  So to summarize, We machine the following:

All parts 100% from barstock except the frizzen, cock and top jaw

The frizzen starts as a casting but receives considerable cnc machining.  The pan cover is surface ground first.  This is used as a reference surface for fixturing in the CNC the sides of the foot are machined to a precise dimension.  The pivot hole is then drilled and reamed in the machine.  The toe that contacts the frizzen spring is also machine.  Finally the edge of the frizzen that butts up against the barrel is cnc machined.   So, with this approach all of the critical features are cnc cut and quite precise.

Our springs are even 100% machined.  No one else is doing this.  This is something we take great pride in given the benefits and difficulty.  Even the delicate finial on the frizzen spring is 100% cnc cut.  Having machined springs allows them to be controlled much more precisely than castings or forgings that receive subsequent hand work.  This allows every critical working part of the mechanism to be controlled very closely with efficiency. 

As to differnces in characteristics of cast springs versus machined or forged ones, I feel there is very little difference.  I believe those that believe this have very little to base this belief on and think it's a myth that has been accepted for a long time.  It's pretty easy to see the similarities and differences between a machined and a forged spring.  Both start with forged material.  The only significant difference is grain flow.  A forged (bent) spring has grain that flows around the bend.  This is ideal.  With a machined spring the grain flow runs parrel or mostly parallel to the legs of the spring.  Around the bend there is a cross grain condition.  However, if this area is sufficently strong (has sufficient cross section) this becomes irrelevant and the ease of manufacture and control available from fully cnc machined springs shine.  As to cast versus forged or machined springs, I think some have greatly overblown the difference.  The modulus of elasticity dictates the strength of a spring.  This is basically a material property and is not affected much at all by heat treatment, manufacturing etc.  I have seen slight differences in referenced modulus of elasticity values for cast versus forged steel, but if I recall correctly they were around 5% or less.  Cast springs do stand the chance of having more defects than forged (bent) or machined counterparts.  A final plug for the fully machined springs is that the chance for problems during processing are much less.  Your not relying on an individual to work the material at the right heat and not overheat etc.  Your not relying on a hand working operation to control size and avoid stress riser locations etc.  So there's my thoughts on that.  Oh, one final note, Jud Brennan, who in my view is the best at this stuff and has made well over a hundred locks of the absolute highest quality, cuts springs out of bar.  No bending.  It works and works well.

Though less critical, the cock is even cnc machined to accept the top jaw.  This results in a tight and consistent fit between the top jaw and cock.

Hope this helps clarify our approach.

Jim

[Chris Evrard]

Jim,

Thanks for the reply and clarification. I am impressed!

The plates must take some real cycle time.

As I mentioned in your thread, I look forward to handling one of your new locks. I especially like the pinned bridle.

Best,

Chris E.

PS. My original post edited..........

No, the plate is fully 100% machined from barstock!  This is the foundation of the whole assembly.  Many parts reference off of the plate and it must be right.  One could argue you could start with a casting and then machine critical areas, but there are problems with this approach.  So to summarize, We machine the following:

All parts 100% from barstock except the frizzen, cock and top jaw

The frizzen starts as a casting but receives considerable cnc machining.  The pan cover is surface ground first.  This is used as a reference surface for fixturing in the CNC the sides of the foot are machined to a precise dimension.  The pivot hole is then drilled and reamed in the machine.  The toe that contacts the frizzen spring is also machine.  Finally the edge of the frizzen that butts up against the barrel is cnc machined.   So, with this approach all of the critical features are cnc cut and quite precise.

Our springs are even 100% machined.  This is something we take great pride in given the benefits and difficulty.  Even the delicate finial on the frizzen spring is 100% cnc cut.  Having machined springs allows them to be controlled much more precisely than castings or forgings that receive subsequent hand work.  This allows every critical working part of the mechanism to be controlled very closely with efficiency.

Though less critical, the cock is even cnc machined to accept the top jaw. 

Hope this helps clarify our approach.

Jim

[Bob Roller]

Chris is right we been able to do this for "at least" 20-25 years. Im a Journeymen Machinist and can remember CNC machines that used "Punched Tape" we had thousands of little canisters with Paper tape in them for each Program/Job.
Now the Haas Machining center has graphics a mirror image   "G"  code  Multiple and different X-Y zeros if you want them. It's easier, But it still takes days and week's  of work before anything good comes out.  Especially if your building parts like JIM and CHRIS.

Alot of People can write the code and watch the graphics with the tool changes  and offsets and so on.
BUTT they  dont get the idea of how We going to hold - "Are" part which side we going to start with, can we do this with Three custom Fixtures.
Oh yea, Do We have to Make Our Fixtures mostly on a Manual Machine Or do you have a code for Them too?
Or does it have so many operations that we need Six fixtures? 
Gee I dont Know? Maybe these parts are just too much work how many we going to sell?  and for how  much?
By the way do we have any more 1/16  Endmills I just broke another one I think the part is "chattering" a little" we might need to fix up something to make it more ridged.

If you really want to have Nightmares open the back of a Old Pocket Watch made before CNC'S I really cant imagine how they did it!!

I commend your accomplishments a lot more work than most people know.
Adam.

Open the back of an old pocket watch made before CNC's? I had a pocket watch made by the International Watch Co.
in Shaffhausen,Switzerland in 1873 and it was DIGITAL.It had 3 small "windows" and the numbers for the minutes would
change every 60 seconds and could be seen in those windows and then at 59/59 it would show the hour.It was in a #12
coin silver hunting case. That mechanism was a masterpiece and I wish I had kept it.
Bob Roller