Another Siler to English conversion

[smart dog]

Hi,
I converted this small Siler to a more English lock for a member of this forum and sent it off today.  I added weld to the frizzen and lock plate, reshaped the pan, flint cock, and frizzen spring.  I also reshaped and balanced the mainspring and frizzen spring.  Finally, I cut 2-step moldings around the plate and flint cock.  It came out well but Siler guts are too big to get the profile just right. I left final polishing to the owner.  It gives you an idea what can be done though. Sparks really well.

dave

[J. Talbert]

Nice job Dave,

Can you describe the process of cutting the molding?

Thanks,
Jeff

[hanshi]

A great job on that lock.

[tallbear]

Nice work Dave!!!!

[Mike Lyons]

Lot of work went into that job.  Very nice looking lock.

[Mike Brooks]

I'll bet that something like that doesn't come cheap.

[Tim Crosby]

 What Mitch said.

 Is this the ad?  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=55643.msg556659#msg556659

 If so I will delete it since it has been taken care of.

  Tim

[smart dog]

Hi Tim,
No, the work was for someone else and I finished most of it before Dixon's so well before that listing. I am not going to to do this on a regular basis.  Mike, I did not charge a lot because the client is a friend but the time spent approaches 30 solid hours of work.   

dave

[smart dog]

Hi Jeff,
The stepped molding starts by making sure the bevel on the lock plate and flint cock is even and well shaped.  Then, using a 90 degree square graver, I cut a ledge just above the edge of the lock plate. The graver is tilted so one side is level with the surface of the plate. The graver must be very sharp and I sharpen it often during the process otherwise you will get in trouble fast. Then when that shoulder is cut, I clean it up with a flat graver and a tiny flat riffler file.  Next I cut the upper step. Again, I use a super sharp square graver and cut lightly into the edge of top of the plate and bevel. I cut straight in to that edge without worrying if about the angle I hold the the graver.  It just requires good tool control to follow the edge.  I clean up any irregularities with a tiny flat riffler file and I usually am done.  It requires some careful polishing with stones. The result is well worth the effort vastly enhancing the look of the lock.  I am sure someone could use a milling machine to to the job but I don't have one and substitute skill for the machine. Below are photos of other lock on which I cut the moldings.

dave   

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Tim,
No, the work was for someone else and I finished most of it before Dixon's so well before that listing. I am not going to to do this on a regular basis.  Mike, I did not charge a lot because the client is a friend but the time spent approaches 30 solid hours of work.   

dave

I can build a gun in that amount of time!

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
I'll bet you can.   I sure cannot.

dave

[Chris Evrard]

Holy Moly that is a lot of work! Nice job too!

Wow,

Chris E.

[G_T]

Having a (currently disassembled) milling machine, I'd have to say I couldn't cut that molding! And my engraving isn't up to that skill level. VERY nice work!

Gerald

[J. Talbert]

Thanks for the info Dave.

Jeff

[Ed Wenger]

That turned out great, Dave!  Really nice looking / functioning lock!



             Ed

[Blacksmoke]

Excellent conversions Dave!  You're my kind of guy!   Hugh Toenjes

[Robby]

Masterful work as always Dave. I did that step to an L&R Egg lock for an English fowling gun recently, using gravers, files and emery paper.



I have to let the 'burn-out' pass before I go back and finish it. Not as nice as yours but a big accomplishment for me.
Robby

[Jim Kibler]

While this is careful and neat work, I have to be the naysayer and ask why?  In the end it really only approximates an English lock of the period you are trying to emulate.  As mentioned, it's a pile of work as well.  Maybe this is part of the reason you mentioned for not wanting to do a lot more of this work.

Sorry for being the negative voice here.  You do good work and I appreciate what went into it, but just don't completely understand.

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
You have to ask the owner why he wanted it done.
I did it on another Siler for an English fowler because there is no flat-faced English locks for the time period 1760-1770 available.  The only one is Chambers early Ketland but that is often too large for the project. The result is also pretty close to original locks.  I placed the lock plate and flint cock on full sized photos of locks in Blackley's catalog and they are bang on. I only wish I could pinch the tail shorter but the sear spring and sear location make that impossible.    Now if you or Chris would make one, a good one and not some trade gun quality version, I would not bother with any conversions.  Another solution might be if Jim Chambers could make his gunmaker's lock with an option for an English pan, frizzen, and flintcock. Anyway, I am never one to step away from a challenge and improvise when that is required.

dave

[Kevin Houlihan]

  The lock that Dave converted is for me, and I think it looks great.  The lock will be for an English styled pistol and I really didn't want to build it with an obviously Germanic lock.  There are not really a lot of good options for small English locks available.  I already had the small Siler when I saw the other lock that Dave had done and approached him about doing one for me.  I just hope that the rest of the pistol turns out as nice as the lock
Kevin

[hen]

That will need to be a massive pistol, otherwise the architecture will be badly compromised. That is not a pistol-size lock!

[smart dog]

Hi,
Thanks for looking and all the comments folks.

Hen, the plate ended up being about 4 5/8" long.  That is certainly on the large size for a British-styled pistol but is workable. I wish we could get a good English lock about 4.25" long for pistols. This is the lock I wish we could get even without the safety bolt: 


dave

[Elnathan]

Another solution might be if Jim Chambers could make his gunmaker's lock with an option for an English pan, frizzen, and flintcock.

A pistol-sized variant would be nice too...maybe a really big musket sized one as well.

With the new CNC locks competing for the "off-the-shelf" share of the market, concentrating more on easily modifiable locks might be a way for the current lock makers to stay afloat. If you are already planning on doing a significant amount of work swapping out and filing parts and will probably have to tune the lock anyway when you are done, springing for a CNC lock makes less sense.

Of course, I don't see many folks here using the Gunmakers Lock to begin with, so may the market isn't there.

[hen]

Dave---thank you for the dimension regarding the lockplate. I would look on 4.25" as being the maximum size for a pistol lock pre 1780, or thereabouts, with the locks getting gradually smaller up to the end of the flint period. I am only speaking with regard to English locks and not European.

[Clint]

A few years ago I was building a model of a Baltimore Clipper when my son in law asked me why I was making deadeyes by hand. After all you could just buy them at a hobby store. I told him that HE could buy them but I could not. It was not about money, it was about building, just building. In the end, I donated the model a new restaurant and I went on to build other things. For many people, having a finished object is the ultimate goal, but for many others the goal is to make the object. It takes me about 80 - 90 hours to make a flint lock from scratch The finished locks spark well and I study lock design constantly. If I put roofs on houses I could buy 6 or 8 locks with that time, but I am driven to make them. The eighteenth century was the high point in human history for hand made products, that is one of the hidden reasons why Philadelphia high boy chests and Kentucky rifles are so intriguing. Once we stop following our passions and start counting hours and dollars, we leave the world of hand work and enter the world of “go to work” Most of us go to work plenty, and it’s great to sit down with a challenge which tests our skills on many levels, and then succeed with the project.  Daves conversion lock is out standing for the detail of his work and stands as a testament that you don’t always have to take what is offered on the menu. Nothing wrong with cnc and nothing wrong with wax cast locks, but also nothing wrong with hand work.
Clint