Author Topic: Strong enuff?  (Read 1352 times)

Offline mountainman70

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Strong enuff?
« on: September 13, 2019, 09:51:31 PM »
I was asked this question by some guys that want to know. I would not,personally ,even think about this, but some do, I suppose'

Are Green Mtn 1" x 30" x 54 cal  slow twist,,breeched with L&R patent breech, strong enough to handle 150 grain loads of substitute black powder, with a belted ball/ bullet ?
 These fellows hunt bear and other big critters with muzzleloaders.
 Whaddaya think?
Thanks, dave F 8) 8)

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2019, 10:00:17 PM »
Personally, if I wanted to shoot that load, I would prove the barrel with a 250 grain load and a long string tied around my finger. Regardless of what any consensus might be.

In the end, thereís only one way to know for sure.
-Bob

My Highland ancestors were sentenced to ĎTransportationí in lieu of death by King George after the Battle of Culloden. Serving time in Dixie since 1746.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2019, 10:08:25 PM »
That is what I would call, ďFire on one end, fool on tíotherĒ if the person asking was someone I could mess with a bit. I donít think thereís much to be gained over 100-120 grains.

Iím not sure why people think itís super hard to kill black bears. From what I hear itís not much different from killing deer.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2019, 10:37:26 PM »
There are a couple of things that make me wonder here. 

I tend to think of slow twist as a roundball barrel.

I am not sure why anyone would want to use barrel-ruining fake blackpowder. 

What would you need a charge that heavy?  A roundball with a much lower charge will penetrate and kill just fine. 

Seems like an odd scenario, with potential for unhappiness, for little gain. 

Just the way I see it from what was posted.  I guess I am old enough and crotchety enough to not be impressed by people overloading guns. 

The one good thing I see is that GM barrel. They make some good shooting barrels.  Not sure about once they get exposed to corrosive fake powder. 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2019, 11:19:48 PM »
That is what I would call, ďFire on one end, fool on tíotherĒ if the person asking was someone I could mess with a bit. I donít think thereís much to be gained over 100-120 grains.

Iím not sure why people think itís super hard to kill black bears. From what I hear itís not much different from killing deer.

The only difference is the deer won't eat you. :)
Pete

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2019, 11:24:00 PM »
I well remember the 60s- 70s Magnumitis that was so prevalent in the Gun Press. Seems like all the writers "in the know" right, had the opinion all black powder rifles had to be shot with 130 plus gr loads, and a maxi or mini projectile. Dang, them things hurt when ya touched her off.
My 62 Saml Hwken doesn't hurt that much with 120 and a good ol round ball.
 One of the guys claimed a slow twist barrel with that loading shot flat out to 200 yds.
I have no experience with this scenario. Maybe it do, maybe it don't.
I don't know. he also dislikes that Corrosive black powder,too much trouble to clean,wheras with the substitute, al he has to do is run a brush down the bore.
 Not sure I would be comfortable on the same range. Thanks for the replies so far. keep em coming Thanks, dave 8) 8)

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2019, 11:25:03 PM »
What do you think,Pete? You hunt the bigguns
Thanks dave

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2019, 12:09:03 AM »
The subject asking the question just needs some education.  The load he is proposing is completely unnecessary.  He is limited to one shot.  So he must be guaranteed in his own mind that he can make a fatal shot- one shot!  The .54 cal round ball and 90 gr. of BLACK POWDER will shoot completely through a bear.  But the ball must pass through vital organs, or else it is not going to kill.  It doesn't matter how much more lead or powder he uses if he cannot be sure of his shot.  The load he proposes will have formidable recoil.  Knowing that, he will almost certainly flinch and miss, whereas with the pleasant shooting BP load, he is less likely to miss.  There is nothing difficult about cleaning a rifle when BLack powder is used.  The same cannot be said for substitutes.  Since he is asking questions, he wants to learn...so teach him.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2019, 12:10:23 AM »
I was asked this question by some guys that want to know. I would not,personally ,even think about this, but some do, I suppose'

Are Green Mtn 1" x 30" x 54 cal  slow twist,,breeched with L&R patent breech, strong enough to handle 150 grain loads of substitute black powder, with a belted ball/ bullet ?
 These fellows hunt bear and other big critters with muzzleloaders.
 Whaddaya think?
Thanks, dave F 8) 8)

Hi Dave: my thoughts.

1st off, I expect the reason for the question about 150gr. powder charge is the use of 3, 50gr. compressed plugs of phony bp.

I'm with the other guys. I think it is foolish to attempt.  Pressures skyrocket with such loads.  A standard HEAVY load for a patched round ball, last stats I saw, developed in the vicinity of
15,000PSI.

One of the reloading companies (Accurate Arms) printed a whack of data years ago, about BP ctg.'s and the pressures THEY generated with standard loads, with what appeared to be
similar loads (70 to 120gr.) only with bullets, not patched round balls.

The 70gr charge developed 22,000psi while the 120gr. load, same bullet, developed 30,000psi. 

This alone should make them re-consider their folly.  Bulleted loads are hard on nipples and flintlock vents due to burnout. Neither of these were designed for high pressure bulleted charges
yet they last for years with normal charges and round balls due to the GREATLY lowered pressures.

If they don't think a round ball is powerful enough - they have not hunted with one &/or are listening to people who know not of what they are writing/speaking.

Round ball rifles dominated the large dangerous game hunting for over a century, until breech loading guns were invented. Even a .45 or .50 RB rifle will kill moose and elk reliably, if planted in the
right spot.

A .54 is much more than necessary for hunting, killing black bears. On the other hand, to hunt grizzly I would not consider with less than a 20 bore rifle, and preferably with a 16 bore or larger.

Bob-in-the-woods, 10 bore sounds about right.

Samuel Baker (of Africa and India) - "I had a conical mould made for this rifle.............but instead of rendering it more invincible, it entirely destroyed it's efficacy, and brought me into such
scrapes that I at length fave up the conical ball as useless."
« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 12:18:19 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline varsity07840

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2019, 12:32:30 AM »
If this crosses the line rules wise, my apologies.

Coincidently, today I witnessed something at the range that tops the belted ball/substitute powder scenario. a gent was using the type of powder used by the Spanish in Cuba in a TC product that has, shall we say a modern ignition system. He claimed that he "knew a guy that had worked for TC" who told him that his rifle could handle it. I was glad to be three benches down from him, with screens next to each bench. I probably should have told the range officer but that could have erupted into something heated, and I know he has next to no knowledge of black powder and muzzleloading. I've never seen another guy shoot BP at this range. I warned the guy and walked away. Strangely enough, the guy next to him heard the whole conversation and wasn't bothered at all.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 02:44:11 AM by varsity07840 »

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2019, 12:43:11 AM »
If this crosses the line rules wise, my apologies.

Coincidently, today I witness something at the range that tops the belted ball/substitute powder scenario. a gent was using the type of powder used by the Spanish in Cuba in a TC product that has, shall we say a modern ignition system. He claimed that he "knew a guy that had worked for TC" who told him that his rifle could handle it. I was glad to be three benches down from him, with screens next to each bench. I probably should have told the range officer but that could have erupted into something heated, and I know he has next to no knowledge of black powder and muzzleloading. I've never seen another guy shoot BP at this range. I warned the guy and walked away. Strangely enough, the guy next to him heard the whole conversation and wasn't bothered at all.

Wow. Thatís the reason I do all my shootiní on the farm. Iím the only idiot I have to worry about.  :o
-Bob

My Highland ancestors were sentenced to ĎTransportationí in lieu of death by King George after the Battle of Culloden. Serving time in Dixie since 1746.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2019, 02:29:15 AM »
What do you think,Pete? You hunt the bigguns
Thanks dave

Big guns? Not me, unless you think a .54 PRB with 80gr is a big gun.
Pete

Offline varsity07840

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2019, 02:51:34 AM »
If this crosses the line rules wise, my apologies.

Coincidently, today I witness something at the range that tops the belted ball/substitute powder scenario. a gent was using the type of powder used by the Spanish in Cuba in a TC product that has, shall we say a modern ignition system. He claimed that he "knew a guy that had worked for TC" who told him that his rifle could handle it. I was glad to be three benches down from him, with screens next to each bench. I probably should have told the range officer but that could have erupted into something heated, and I know he has next to no knowledge of black powder and muzzleloading. I've never seen another guy shoot BP at this range. I warned the guy and walked away. Strangely enough, the guy next to him heard the whole conversation and wasn't bothered at all.

Wow. Thatís the reason I do all my shootiní on the farm. Iím the only idiot I have to worry about.  :o

Tomorrow I go to shoot with my friends with the  French Broad Rifles in Asheville, NC. The real deal, keeping the tradition alive. Having moved down from NJ, I'm very fortunate to have found this club.

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2019, 03:13:22 AM »
Pete, I meant the big critters. You think the loading in question is stupid or useful? Thanks, dave 8) 8)

Our club has a couple guys that shoot long range, and use the substitute powder.
I would be more concerned with breech pressure  than recoil,tho I wouldn't want to shoot that load.But I don't hunt anymore, and never anything dangerous.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2019, 05:22:24 AM »
That much even worthless fake powder wonít burn completely in a thirty inch barrel. As was stated, a slow twist barrel, and a conical bullet are not a wise combination either. So, it seems this is one stupid choice being used to counteract another stupid choice. So, why not go with a hundred grains of 2 F, a patched round ball, and trying not to shoot it in the butt.

  Hungry Horse

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2019, 05:39:38 AM »
I have shot a lot of black bears.  Some with a ,54 rifle , or a 20 bore gun ; many with the 10 bore Chambers New England fowling gun. None of the bears were more than 50 yards away , and most were 25 yards or less. I have never recovered a ball from a bear.  Never.  I have found a smoking ball still wrapped in the paper cartridge imbedded in a hill after passing through the chest, lungs and heart of a really big ,old bear. That load was 120 gr FFg and a .715 ball ..  The .54 used 80 gr FFg and a .535 ball.   If you do the math and work out the foot pounds of "power/ energy" of these loads, it's not all that much, and yet they are deadly on game. If the fellow wants more "power" then it's better to go bigger than up the charge and use a bullet.  The upper load for me in the 10 bore is 140 gr FFg and that is for a flatter trajectory only, not to increase lethality.  Pressures are still fairly low , even with the 140 gr load because of the large bore.

Offline Walkingeagle

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2019, 06:43:00 AM »
I would have to look (dig out my GM owners manual-tomorrow if you need the for sure info) but I believe 120 gr of 2fg is listed as maximum with the .535 prb. I have the GM IBS barrel. I believe it is 32Ē 1:70 twist percussion. I would tell them that they cannot shoot those volumes safely personally.
Walk

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2019, 10:55:21 AM »
In 1976 I bought a TC Renegade in .54 caliber. Packaged in the box was a neat little book that told you all about loading, shooting and cleaning blackpowder weapons. It also had a load table. The maximum load was 120 gr. 2fg and if memory serves me that generated 2100 fps or so, out of a 26" barrel.  Positive thinking.....
Anyway I took that little book as the bible and hunted with 120 grains of 2fg for several years. Let me tell you it was punishing in that light rifle. Every shot I could feel my forehead getting speckled by pieces of cap and powder. I made some spectacular kills but it was fast becoming not fun anymore, so I cut back to 110 grains of 2f for my hunting load. It made the rifle easier to shoot and still killed them just as dead.
Things have changed since back then. Now I only shoot flintlocks. I have shot deer with a low charge of 65 grains of 3f to my regular load of 80 grains 3f and I can't say I can tell the difference. Gun goes boom, deer either falls dead or runs a short distance, same distance regardless of charge. Maybe if I ever get that elk tag I'll work up a 100 grain load, maybe not.

Back then when the fake powder stuff first hit the market with claims of no cleaning etc. I bought a pound and tryed it. It shot alright but I liked my real black best. I forgot to clean my rifle for a few days and it rusted. I never shot any of that stuff again.  Then the plant blew up and made it a moot point.
Just a little stroll down memory lane.......
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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2019, 03:10:25 PM »
Pete, I meant the big critters. You think the loading in question is stupid or useful? Thanks, dave 8) 8)

Our club has a couple guys that shoot long range, and use the substitute powder.
I would be more concerned with breech pressure  than recoil,tho I wouldn't want to shoot that load.But I don't hunt anymore, and never anything dangerous.


I'm not sure what you mean by the big stuff? Are you talking about Grizzlies? I used my load of 80gr of Swiss powder with a .54 PRB for elk, black bear, and muley bucks.

I'd only hunt for a grizz with a CF gun.
Pete

Offline mountainman70

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2019, 04:11:06 PM »
Thanks to all. These guys are so all knowing there isn't much use to try to tell them otherwise. One of those just walk away from conversations.
Best regards to all and thanks. Dave F 8) 8)

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2019, 07:16:27 PM »
Reminds me of a fellow named Darwin.
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2019, 07:40:56 PM »
Just remember the folks that canít be educated often are the ones that get someone else hurt. Unless youíre related to them, Iíd avoid them like the plague.

  Hungry Horse

Offline hanshi

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2019, 10:34:46 PM »
I've killed lots of deer with charges of 65 grains up to 100 grains.  I even killed one deer with 110 grains - notice that's only one.  I'm unlikely to ever use more than about 70 to 75 grains in any deer/bear hunt.
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Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2019, 02:37:13 AM »
In the words of a wise man:
 "You can always tell a moron you just can't tell them much".
The "Muskrat" has spoken
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Offline utseabee

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Re: Strong enuff?
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2019, 03:18:15 AM »
Pretty sure that Green Mountain would not endorse that load combination