Author Topic: Should it be better? 58 cal.  (Read 850 times)

Offline Wyoduster

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Should it be better? 58 cal.
« on: September 19, 2019, 11:57:20 PM »
I have been doin my darnest and this seems to be my best.. 110 gns of 1 1/2 Swiss with a ox yoke .10 patch. and a .570 hornady ball.  this is off a rest at 100yd.. Think I should be doin better? Its a Flintlock I built a couple years ago. 37" swamped Rice barrel.


Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2019, 12:13:38 AM »
I have a tough time keeping my .58 from blowing .010 patches. I use .570 Hornady balls and .018 patches and 80 grains of 2f for best results on my round groove colerain barrel.
-Bob

My Highland ancestors were sentenced to ‘Transportation’ in lieu of death by King George after the Battle of Culloden. Serving time in Dixie since 1746.

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2019, 12:34:00 AM »
How does this group compare to what you get with other guns?

I find that with 1-60 radius bottom Hoyt 58 I can get close to 1” groups using .565 weighed RBs, 80 grains of Swiss 3F with .022/.015” compressed denim.

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2019, 01:16:34 AM »
This could be something as simple as light. Have you tried sight shaders?

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2019, 01:25:05 AM »
What can useful in figuring out what is going on, is numbering the shots on paper.  That way you can see if the shots are climbing, or if the first 2 or 3 are better than the ones following etc.   That said, I think your patches are too thin, especially with that 110 gr load.

Offline Wyoduster

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2019, 01:49:34 AM »
What can useful in figuring out what is going on, is numbering the shots on paper.  That way you can see if the shots are climbing, or if the first 2 or 3 are better than the ones following etc.   That said, I think your patches are too thin, especially with that 110 gr load.
I have tried thicker patches but have to beat them in the barrel.. I'll try it again. and try lighter loads...

Offline Roger B

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2019, 02:15:26 AM »
I would go up to at least a .020 patch; denim might work well.  Use a good patch lube (take your pick) & back your powder down to around 90grs. You might back up to 50 yds to determine your best load & head back out to 100.
Roger B.
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Offline One Eye

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2019, 02:24:44 AM »
Wyo,
I use .570 weighed cast balls with 110 of Swiss 1.5, a 20 thou patch and a felt wad over the powder.
TOW mink oil on the patch.
Works just fine,
One Eye
"Even a fool is counted wise when he holds his peace..."
 Proverbs 17:28

Offline Wyoduster

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2019, 02:33:24 AM »
Back to the range tomorrow....  ;)
 I'll try thicker patches.. I do have some. and back down my powder load.
A wad...... hmmm I use wads over powder in my shotgun but never tried it in a rifle.. how thick?

Offline RichG

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2019, 02:46:45 AM »
round groove or square rifling. Iv'e found I need a thicker patch with round groove. I can't imagine a .010 thick patch surviving 110 gr of powder. If .570 with .020-.025 patches is to tight pick up a .562 mould. My 58 has a green Mtn. barrel, 1 in 72 twist. Target load is .575 ball .020 patch ,wet lube and 75 gr 3f. 1300fps and shoots clover leafs at 50 yds. hunting load is 120 gr 3f OE .562 ball and .030 patch with mink oil. 1850 fps and shoots better than I can see anymore.

Offline RichG

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2019, 03:24:29 AM »
If your range isn't covered try an awning or shades on your sights. even just taping some cardboard over sights.

Offline Fyrstyk

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2019, 02:16:59 PM »
You might try a felt wad over the powder with your patch and round ball.  I have found with some of my guns using a heavy powder charge that this helps close up the groups.

Offline 45-110

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2019, 03:39:14 PM »
My .58 Rice 34" Hawken was/is the most difficult barrel I have owned to arrive at 100 yd accuracy. Hundreds of shots later, piles of patch mat'l, 4 molds, 6 diameter balls total has lead me to one load that is fairly decent. I found 110 gr. Goex 3f, 021" linen and .573" ball (supposed .575 mold) prints 3 inch 100 yd groups. I coned the muzzle and it still is had to load, took a wood ball and drilled a hole 1/2 through to put over ram rod end to save my hand seating the ball. Built as a elk hunting rifle, I guess i can live with that though. I wish the bore had the wide grooves and narrow lands for easier loading, oh well!
good luck
kw

Offline varsity07840

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2019, 04:45:43 PM »
I have been doin my darnest and this seems to be my best.. 110 gns of 1 1/2 Swiss with a ox yoke .10 patch. and a .570 hornady ball.  this is off a rest at 100yd.. Think I should be doin better? Its a Flintlock I built a couple years ago. 37" swamped Rice barrel.


Unless you have a 1:72 twist, I don't think you need that a charge that heavy for the best accuracy. And, as noted, .010 patches in round bottom grooves seems very thin. I'd go with .020 ticking and try a .575 ball as well. My Hoyt .58 with .012 grooves  likes a .575 ball and a .022 patch lubed with mink oil.  They start with one good wack of the starter. It does have a 1:72 twist, so I didn't find the sweet spot until I went through a number of combinations before I found the patch/ball combo and 100 gr of 2F Swiss.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2019, 08:21:00 PM »
And, as noted, .010 patches in round bottom grooves seems very thin. I'd go with .020 ticking and try a .575 ball as well. My Hoyt .58 with .012 grooves  likes a .575 ball and a .022 patch lubed with mink oil.  They start with one good wack of the starter. It does have a 1:72 twist, so I didn't find the sweet spot until I went through a number of combinations before I found the patch/ball combo and 100 gr of 2F Swiss.

Varsity is spot-on Wyoduster - others too.  .010" doesn't even made a good handkerchief (snot rag) & it's also too thin for cleaning patches.  If you cannot EASILY load a compressed to .022" denim patch and .575" ball, either your bore is pitted or perhaps a weight training program is required.  The grooves in rounded bottom rifling are usually .016" deep, all the way past some of
the late Don Getz's .025" to Hugh's .035" deep rifling. Pray-tell how a .010" patch is going to seal that with a .010" undersized ball (smaller than bore size) as well.  at best, you are less than 1/3rd into the depth of the rifling, each side.

Wyoduster, your 6 to 7" group is not very good, lousy actually, but - it is no worse than I would expect from such a loose load.  My last .58 (48" twist), actually was a .574" bore Enfield m1861, so I used a .570" ball and 10oz denim (.022") and 85gr. 2F, made 3 to 3 1/2" groups for me at 100 meters. I expect the accuracy could have been better, but with a 24" bl. the military sights were
very close together. I had done no load development and merely used what I knew would work reasonably well - it did.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2019, 09:49:54 PM »
Wyoduster,,

I think the gents are on the right path above. 

One thing to consider is the crown of your muzzle.  If it is the factory bevel from Rice, the loading is going to be harder.  Try Daryl's recommended muzzle treatment with your thumb and sandpaper.  Do a search and you'll find it quick. 

To do the math, your bore is a nominal .580.  If it is round-bottom rifled, you have 2 x .016 deep grooves.  That is a groove to groove depth of .612".

Your ball is .570.  Your patch is .010.  Your total diameter is .590. 

You can quickly see that you are not sealing the bore at all.  The charge is blowing right past the ball and patches.  You are most likely getting some widely varying velocities, and as you can see on the paper, some pretty mediocre groups.  I would also hazard to guess that your bore is really fouled after shooting, and cleanup is lengthy. 

To seal that bore, if you have round-bottom rifling, you need at least a .021 patching.  I'd go for 100% canvas with really dense weave.  Something like The-Minute-Men.  Lose those Ox Yoke patches.  I have had no good luck with those.  If you can see light through a fired patch, holding it up to the sun, in my opinion you need better patching. 

If you have flat-bottom square rifling, your equation gets better.  You get .012 times two, plus .580, giving you .604 to seal.  That means you'd only need .017 patching.  I find Rice's flat bottom rifling much easier to work with than round-bottom. 

Yes, with thick patching you'll probably need a short starter.  My thinking is this: if target shooting, grouping, or load development, I load tight.  There is no down side.  Use a range rod.  The first shot in the bore when hunting is also loaded tight - for accuracy.  In the bag goes a lighter patch material that is easy to load with a wood ramrod in the field.  If loading fast and in a big hurry, the ultimate accuracy of follow-up shots is less important than speed. 

Also, follow Daryl's method of wet patching (unless hunting for an extended period of time during a day).  Pour in the powder, wet patch the ball, and all of the gradeaux in the bore gets pushed down ON TOP OF the powder charge.  When the shot goes off, all of that goes out of the bore.  The only thing in the bore is the gradeaux from ONE shot.  If you wipe between shots, the gradeaux goes to the bottom, UNDER the powder, and builds up.  Not good. 

I hope this helps a little.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline Wyoduster

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2019, 11:22:41 PM »
Back from the range.
 I tried a few different things.. mostly thicker patches.They had different groups, non good.
  I shot this 7 shot group with same ball the Hornady .570 patched with a .018 patch(ox yoke lubed), added a felt pad(ox yoke lubed), over 100 gns. of Swiss 1 1/2.
 Its getting there... what do you think? thats a 3" group.


dice animated gif

Offline hanshi

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2019, 12:23:56 AM »
If that's a 100 yard target then you are getting there, and actually, a 3" group at that distance is better than I can do, nowadays.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2019, 01:12:27 AM »
Heck yeah that's there for hunting I'd say.

Good job sorting things out. Sure you might can get it better, but there's plenty of time for that. I certainly don't need more accuracy than that for pluggin' deer in the deep woods.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2019, 02:21:04 AM »
Getting better for sure. Note the general poi is identical to the 1st group. Moving sights is the easiest thing to do.
As Marc notes, smoothing the muzzle's crown makes loading much easier and prevents cutting tight combinations on loading.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline utseabee

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2019, 10:51:04 PM »
    I have settled on 80 grains of Swiss with 570 round ball and .022 pillow ticking. I have a Rice barrel with round bottom rifling. The grooves are .016 deep so I had to get thicker patches. Each brand of barrel is a little different, what barrel do you have?

Offline Wyoduster

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2019, 12:43:19 AM »
    I have settled on 80 grains of Swiss with 570 round ball and .022 pillow ticking. I have a Rice barrel with round bottom rifling. The grooves are .016 deep so I had to get thicker patches. Each brand of barrel is a little different, what barrel do you have?
I have a Swamped Rice Barrel and have settled on 100 gns 1 1/2F swiss 570 ball, felt wad(oxyoke) over the powder and a .018 patch. Thats a 3" group and will surly down a whitetail or a bear come October 19th. Of course I'll be playing with it a few more times before season....

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2019, 01:43:33 AM »
Back from the range.
 I tried a few different things.. mostly thicker patches.They had different groups, non good.
  I shot this 7 shot group with same ball the Hornady .570 patched with a .018 patch(ox yoke lubed), added a felt pad(ox yoke lubed), over 100 gns. of Swiss 1 1/2.
 Its getting there... what do you think? thats a 3" group.


dice animated gif

What kind of sights. If the gun has traditional,primitive sights I'd say a
3" group at 100yards is good. IF a hooded sight with an aperture and
a peep sight on the tang is used,no good at all.I have never thought much
of the old sights found on so many antique guns and thought the were
good for little beyond locating the top slat of the barrel. ;D

Bob Roller

Offline Wyoduster

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2019, 02:13:59 AM »
 

What kind of sights. If the gun has traditional,primitive sights I'd say a
3" group at 100yards is good. IF a hooded sight with an aperture and
a peep sight on the tang is used,no good at all.I have never thought much
of the old sights found on so many antique guns and thought the were
good for little beyond locating the top slat of the barrel. ;D

Bob Roller
[/quote]

Bob, they are traditional... This is my utility hunting gun. nothing real fancy. In the woods of Pa. 100 yd shot probably won't happen anyway. more than likely be 20-60 yds.

Offline utseabee

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Re: Should it be better? 58 cal.
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2019, 03:09:46 AM »
    I have settled on 80 grains of Swiss with 570 round ball and .022 pillow ticking. I have a Rice barrel with round bottom rifling. The grooves are .016 deep so I had to get thicker patches. Each brand of barrel is a little different, what barrel do you have?
I have a Swamped Rice Barrel and have settled on 100 gns 1 1/2F swiss 570 ball, felt wad(oxyoke) over the powder and a .018 patch. Thats a 3" group and will surly down a whitetail or a bear come October 19th. Of course I'll be playing with it a few more times before season....

3" at a hundred yards is certainly good for that. Hope you get a crack at that bear.