Author Topic: Flint shards  (Read 10178 times)

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Flint shards
« on: July 11, 2009, 09:42:21 PM »
Since  flint shards and knapping were a recent topic, I thought you might like these photos.  They appeared in MuzzleBlasts Jan. 1990.  I'm sure it's obvious to flint shooters that flint shards or chips are removed with every shot - sometimes in "eye-catching" fashion.  The first photo shows the shards flying off the flint/frizzen contact.  I hope you fellows wear eye protection.

This pic was taken by computer firing the flash .011 sec. after the sear released.  Chips are all over.  Note the one just behind the rear fence.


This pic was taken .013 sec after firing or .002 sec after the first one.  Chips can still be seen.


This pic was .015 after firing or .002 sec after pic #2.  The flint is at the bottom of the frizzen.  I can't tell from the pic if the frizzen is moving on its own.  If it isn't it is about to.


Regards,
Pletch
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 10:27:32 PM by Larry Pletcher »
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Dan

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 11:24:47 PM »
I have been guilty of shooting w/o glasses a great many times.  The single exception is the flint lock.  Never considered the flint frags before and thank you for that visual Larry.  My previous consideration was flying pieces of BP on fire and all that...right in front of my face.  Probably the flint is a bigger hazard.

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2009, 05:41:53 AM »
Larry,
Not only great pics, as usual, but another reminder of the inherent danger we face with every shot fired. Thanks again.
Mark
Mark

Daryl

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2009, 06:19:17 PM »
Cap loks are even worse for flying fragments, and cheaply made ones, without proper fences are the most dangerous. For over 20 years my wife wore a tiny copper frag stuck in left her eyelid.  It turned green fairly quickly and was there as a reminder about glasses for me - and her.   The rifle in question was a TC Seneca .36 that used to frag the caps with maxiballs as well as with longer range round ball loads -- the maxi was the 300 yard and deer hunting projectile for that rifle.  yes - 300 yard target shooting. Old nipples, new nipples - didn't matter - all casued fragments - coil springs - YUK.

 Anyways, be careful out there and always wear glasses.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2009, 06:56:07 PM »
Consider this..a flake of flint in your eye will be almost transparent - very difficult to find, and it will have a molecular edge almost all the way around it.  It will cut 50 X better than a surgical scalpel.  Wear glasses.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2009, 08:42:44 PM »
Consider this..a flake of flint in your eye will be almost transparent - very difficult to find, and it will have a molecular edge almost all the way around it.  It will cut 50 X better than a surgical scalpel.  Wear glasses.

Which brings up the question, can anybody recommend some Period Correct looking eyeglasses that would provide decent protection?   James Townsend sells several varieties of glasses, but in both the glasses with round lenses and with rectangular lenses, each lens is only about 1 square inch in area, which seems kinda marginal to me.    I usually wear Walmart wraparound safety glassess, but they are a little out of place on woodswalks.

What do other folks use on woodswalks and the like?  SCL

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2009, 11:55:51 PM »
With safety glasses you may not look PC but at least you'll be able to continue to look.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 03:30:37 PM »
I think there are times when being period correct is not practical.    I don't know of any period glasses that have large,
shatterproof glass in them.   I don't think anyone will condemn you for wearing proper shooting glasses at any period
shooting event, if they did, I would quickly tell them where to go..............Don

Offline G. Elsenbeck

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 04:30:15 PM »
Don, I'm with you.  Especially after reading (& shown) what Pletch provided to us.  I've always wondered regarding shooting flinters and what 'might' happen to the shooters.  I just got in the practice of wearing eye protection in the past few years to be on the safe side.  Even with percussions. 
As far as the PC cop Don, he's probably the one wearing the one patch over his eye.
Gary
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Offline Canute Rex

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 04:38:34 PM »
There really aren't any "period correct" glasses for shooting, because 170+ years ago spectacles would have been worn almost exclusively for reading. They also would have been restricted to literate people with disposable income.

That said, we all should have something in front of our eyes when pulling the trigger.

I have a pair of prescription glasses that I got for tuning up my eyeballs for night driving. They are modern frames from the optometrist, small steel-rimmed ovals, a result of some designer hearkening back to days of old. I find the small ovals sufficient, as I am aligning my eyeball through the lens along the barrel, thus placing part of the lens in the way of the lock mechanism.

They are slightly large for perfect authenticity but good enough to fend off the "period police."

I once had a tiny sliver of steel lodge in my right eye, over the iris, while grinding with inadequate eye protection. Aside from the pain and emotional distress, it cost me several hundred dollars at the E.R.  Think how much powder and ball you could buy with that.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2009, 04:43:03 PM »
Our club has signs posted 'safety glasses strongly recomended'!

I couldn't see w/o them and would not shoot without them if I could see!!

Had one shooter at another club get a copper sliver hit his cheek just under his eye from his cussin rifle and bled pretty decent,  He immediately bought safety glasses for the shootin game...!

Couple other examples; but you get the picture.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 05:12:07 PM by Daryl »

Daryl

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009, 05:14:03 PM »
When safety is concerned, period correctness goes out the window.  Too, for me and many others, where accuracy of shot is concerned, period correctness goes out the window.

Offline RobertS

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2009, 07:08:24 PM »
Great discussion, and I've always wondered, do safety glasses, sunglasses, etc. affect your perception of sight alignment?  In other words, do they hamper your ability to shoot accurately, or does it just depend on a variety of factors?  Our range rules require them of all shooters (not just blackpowder), but some do and some don't when they can get away with it, and I have three sons that I am trying to convince that it is a good idea. 

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2009, 08:24:29 PM »
RobertS, I'm going to go with a qualified 'no' on your question 'do they hamper our ability'.   For the last couple of years, the natural tendency to far-sightedness with increasing age (which is about the only kind of age there is) has cancelled some of my lifelong near-sightedness to the point that I can now see the sights on rifle and pistol well enough to shoot without corrective lenses.   I've been using inexpensive safety glasses for my rifle shooting.  They have to introduce some small amount of distortion that wouldn't be present with glass mounted in frames by a qualified optician.   But, I'm shooting about as well as ever and can hold my own at the club and local shoot level, so they can't be hampering me much. 

The only time I ever recall anybody getting challenged by a shoot official for wearing safety glasses was at least 15 years ago, and the reason stated was that they were tinted yellow, not that they weren't primitive looking.

I was just wondering if anybody had ideas for safe eyewear more in keeping with the spirit of the game.

SCL

Offline Artificer

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2009, 09:36:58 PM »
There really aren't any "period correct" glasses for shooting, because 170+ years ago spectacles would have been worn almost exclusively for reading. They also would have been restricted to literate people with disposable income.


While I completely agree with what Canute wrote, like most "general guidelies" there were exceptions to this general rule.

It was reported that Aaron Burr "“Removed ( his spectacles) and handed to his aid just before the duel.”  This at least suggested he wore them for more than just reading.

In the 1980's, I saw a pair of original 1740's period spectacles that had original green glass lenses in a VERY high end antique store in Middleburg,VA (Not David Condon's shop, btw), this even though clear glass lenses were common and available for spectacles by then.   

Then the question becomes, "Why green glass lenses?"  In a candlelit room at night, they would only have been slightly better than no vision enhancement at all.  It would seem to suggest these lenses may have been used outside similar to modern sunglasses. 

However, there is another possibility.  I'm not an Optometrist, but there is an eye disease where some people can not stand even candlelight.  One of my good customers was a Dentist until he wound up with the disease.  He has to wear a broad brimmed hat indoors and very, VERY dark glasses.  Even so, he can only stand a two to three hours before he has sit down and close his eyes to rest them.  Needless to say, the disease destroyed any hope of being a dentist.  Maybe some of the very early green glass lenses were made for people with a form of that disease. 

It seems green or even amber colored lenses were common for Civil War era sharpsghooters glasses, though I have never run across much if any documentation earlier than that. 

For anyone interested in period eyewear, here is a link with some excellent notes on what was or was not authentic as to construction details of the eyewear.

http://www.antiquespectacles.com/treasures/mistaken.htm#




BrownBear

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2009, 10:05:30 PM »
Avoiding serious eye damage is the most important way to stay in the game.  I got a good chard buried just below my eye.  Deep enough that it took a scalpel and stitches to get the darned thing out.  Would have most assuredly blinded me if it hit any higher.  I don't care what the glasses look like, just wear the darned things.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 10:06:05 PM by BrownBear »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2009, 10:36:08 PM »
When I first got into muzzleloading in the early 70's, we HAD to buy original frames and get our prescription lenses put in them.  We didn't have as much documentation on what was correct back then and the link I posted in the above reply demonstrates how we were often off by a couple to a few decades for what was authentic to the pre or Revolutionary war era.  Fortunately, there has been much more authentic documentation come out and even more importantly, authentic reproductions made.

My first pair of spectacles was of the 1790 to 1810 period, though we thought they were earlier back then.  I lost them somewhere and my second pair were of the 1820 to 1840 period, because that's what I could find in the antique shops.  Some day a future Archaeologist will find them in a dig near the original Union Gun Emplacements the VMI Cadets took at the Battle of New Market and if far enough in the future, it might cause a ruckus to future historians.  I can see it now, "AHA, here is an original example of prescription lenses made about 20 years before any documentation or example was known."  Grin.  I "took a hit" during the Reenactment and lost the spectacles and even though about 15 of us searched all over, we never found them.

Fortunately by the time I needed my next pair of period eyeglasses, G.Gedney Godwin and Jas. Townsend had really nice authentic reproductions.  I have the "blended" bifocals in mine so they "are authentic" or authentic enough for French and Indian War onward.  I have only been challenged once on wearing them and that was ONLY at the EXTREMELY "authentic picky" event at Colonial Williamsburg when we do the weekend "Under the Red Coat" where the British Army took over Williamsburg on the way to the eventual surrender at Yorktown.  (I was then 49 or 50 and very old for a Private Soldier in the Major's Coy, 42nd Royal Highland Regiment and yes, we know they weren't with General Cornwallis's Army, but that's another matter, grin.)  

When the Inspecting Officers came round, my own Captain asked about why I had such fancy shoe buckles.  They weren't fancy, they were almost exactly the same as the standard severely plain soldier's shoe buckle, but mine had to be a bit bigger because I have such large feet and the very slightly smaller ones hurt my feet.  I've always called my feet, "Stable Gun Platforms."  Grin.  I explained that with over three decades of service, I had gambled and wenched most of my income away, so I decided I would buy a slightly neater set of buckles to have something to show for long service.  Both Inspectors chuckled at that and said, "Well, can't argue with that."  Then the other inspecting officer asked how I could afford GOLD spectacles?  I told him they weren't gold, but rather polished brass to match the polished brass on my Musket, shoe buckles and other brass items.  I further told him I had tried steel frames, but they rusted too easily and weren't "Soldierly Enough."  I also told him I would not have used silver frames, even if I could have afforded them, because someone might think I was trying to falsely appear to be a Commissioned Officer or one of my betters."  The Major replied, "Well done, Private.  You are correct not to attempt to emulate your betters."  My Captain just kind of rolled his eyes and had a wry grin on his face.  

My Captain had retired from the modern Army as a "Mustang" Captain and of course he knew I had retired as a Master Gunnery Sergeant of Marines.  Later on when we were alone, he told me Marines were known for good BS, but that was the best case of "period BS" he had ever heard.  This in a jesting manner of course.  Trying to look the innocent, I asked him if there was anything period incorrect with my answers.   He replied, "Well, no there wasn't."  Then I replied, well, what we also reenacted (though we had not intended it) was how an experienced enlisted man "got over" on his officers.  Since he had been both enlisted and an Officer, he got a good laugh out of that.  But I digressed....

From actually wearing them so much, I can highly recommend these spectacles from G. Gedney Godwin and they CAN be fitted with safety glass lenses.  The lens size is big enough it offers some pretty good protection to your eyes.  They are also large enough lenses for those of us used to modern eyeglasses that you don't struggle with adjusting to them as much as some other period styles.

http://www.gggodwin.com/CartGenie/prod-286.htm

Also, Jas Townsend offers them and other styles.  He has an excellent video on period spectacles including how to adjust them on this link:

http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?cPath=7&products_id=166

However as Don and others have suggested, when shooting live rounds in "period" competition, I've never seen nor heard of anyone being denied the use of modern normal or safety glasses.  They might ask you to take them off after you are done shooting in really authentic areas, unless you physically can't do without them.  I did that on a few occasions until I could get period correct glasses.



  
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 10:44:43 PM by Artificer »

Burgess_rudy

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2009, 11:27:49 PM »
Quote

While I completely agree with what Canute wrote, like most "general guidelies" there were exceptions to this general rule.

It was reported that Aaron Burr "“Removed ( his spectacles) and handed to his aid just before the duel.”  This at least suggested he wore them for more than just reading.

In the 1980's, I saw a pair of original 1740's period spectacles that had original green glass lenses in a VERY high end antique store in Middleburg,VA (Not David Condon's shop, btw), this even though clear glass lenses were common and available for spectacles by then.  

Then the question becomes, "Why green glass lenses?"  In a candlelit room at night, they would only have been slightly better than no vision enhancement at all.  It would seem to suggest these lenses may have been used outside similar to modern sunglasses.  

However, there is another possibility. ...


The other possibility which was a saying among 18th century people, 'That a nighttime with Venus will get you a lifetime with Mercury." Mercury was a supposed cure for syphilis, but it just made people lose their vision. People who were seen wearing dark colored glasses usually had a nighttime with Venus.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 11:28:28 PM by Burgess_rudy »

camogun

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2009, 05:50:04 AM »
There really aren't any "period correct" glasses for shooting, because 170+ years ago spectacles would have been worn almost exclusively for reading. They also would have been restricted to literate people with disposable income.


While I completely agree with what Canute wrote, like most "general guidelies" there were exceptions to this general rule.

It was reported that Aaron Burr "“Removed ( his spectacles) and handed to his aid just before the duel.”  This at least suggested he wore them for more than just reading.

In the 1980's, I saw a pair of original 1740's period spectacles that had original green glass lenses in a VERY high end antique store in Middleburg,VA (Not David Condon's shop, btw), this even though clear glass lenses were common and available for spectacles by then.   

Then the question becomes, "Why green glass lenses?"  In a candlelit room at night, they would only have been slightly better than no vision enhancement at all.  It would seem to suggest these lenses may have been used outside similar to modern sunglasses. 

However, there is another possibility.  I'm not an Optometrist, but there is an eye disease where some people can not stand even candlelight.  One of my good customers was a Dentist until he wound up with the disease.  He has to wear a broad brimmed hat indoors and very, VERY dark glasses.  Even so, he can only stand a two to three hours before he has sit down and close his eyes to rest them.  Needless to say, the disease destroyed any hope of being a dentist.  Maybe some of the very early green glass lenses were made for people with a form of that disease. 
Quote
Do you know the name of this disease? I have been having problems with seeing in dayliht for the last few years.  I have to wear shades all day while driving,even in overcast . I drive a truck over the road and am concerned that my vision may degenerate more. I used to do welding when I was in my twenties and now am wondering if this has anything to do with it.  I am now 44 years old, I just would like to know if I am going blind in my old age.
 I can't walk outside on a sunny day now without protection or my eyes will burn like I was maced. I hope this doesn't get worse, I'm planning on buying a new Flintlock and I don't want to have to use a scope to see what I'm shooting at. Thanks for any help, I haven't got much help from the eye doctor that does my prescription.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 05:56:36 AM by camogun »

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2009, 08:09:28 PM »
Speaking of PC; has anyone else noticed that renactment advertised on the back of "Muzzle Blasts" that has a Shawnee warrior equipped with spectacles? I am fairly certain that native American reenactors can be rather difficult to come by, but at least lose the glasses for the photo. It may be historically correct, I don't know, but to my eye it just doesn't look right.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2009, 05:19:02 PM »
There is no period eyewear that is going to work to protect the eye. Sorry, the coverage is not nearly good enough. Funny, it just occurred to me that a friend of mine was shooting a percussion rifle I built with Granny glasses at the shoot in Cody. But the rifle has a good breech design. The image of him with these glasses popped into my head as I typed this.
Daryl's comments on percussion breeches is exactly right.
A GOOD percussion breech is fairly safe. But most MLs out there have very deficient to non-existent shooter protection.
The percussion fragments are more likely to be HV and are more likely to cut the shooters face etc.
As Taylor points out flakes from a flintlock can be VERY, unbelievably, sharp. But small ones will not likely destroy vision. This from a guy who once had an eye full of glass shards in his eye from a tarp strap hook striking my tempered eyeglass lens. It stopped the hook and probably saved my eye from a dead center hit but the glass shard cuts were not a lot of fun for a day or two. Fortunately I was only 40 yards from my supervisors pickup at the time and less than 10 minutes from the clinic and there was no penetration just surface cuts.
Shooters most also consider the shooter to either side since sometimes pretty big chunks of flint may find their way into the ejecta from the vent and achieve high velocity.
When one takes chances with anything one must consider the potential consequences.
MLs are still firearms and operate at pressures that will tear and rend a human with frightening efficiency.
I have thought of contacts for re-enacting but this would require safety glasses for shooting.
Dan

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Peashooterjoe

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2009, 06:03:41 AM »
Safety first always,  some type of shooting glasses is always used when firing percussion or flintlock (also hunting).

The colored glasses were used by syphilis patients at one time, I was told..PeashooterJoe

jmforge

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2009, 08:31:12 AM »
There really aren't any "period correct" glasses for shooting, because 170+ years ago spectacles would have been worn almost exclusively for reading. They also would have been restricted to literate people with disposable income.


While I completely agree with what Canute wrote, like most "general guidelies" there were exceptions to this general rule.

It was reported that Aaron Burr "“Removed ( his spectacles) and handed to his aid just before the duel.”  This at least suggested he wore them for more than just reading.

In the 1980's, I saw a pair of original 1740's period spectacles that had original green glass lenses in a VERY high end antique store in Middleburg,VA (Not David Condon's shop, btw), this even though clear glass lenses were common and available for spectacles by then.   

Then the question becomes, "Why green glass lenses?"  In a candlelit room at night, they would only have been slightly better than no vision enhancement at all.  It would seem to suggest these lenses may have been used outside similar to modern sunglasses. 

However, there is another possibility.  I'm not an Optometrist, but there is an eye disease where some people can not stand even candlelight.  One of my good customers was a Dentist until he wound up with the disease.  He has to wear a broad brimmed hat indoors and very, VERY dark glasses.  Even so, he can only stand a two to three hours before he has sit down and close his eyes to rest them.  Needless to say, the disease destroyed any hope of being a dentist.  Maybe some of the very early green glass lenses were made for people with a form of that disease. 

It seems green or even amber colored lenses were common for Civil War era sharpsghooters glasses, though I have never run across much if any documentation earlier than that. 

For anyone interested in period eyewear, here is a link with some excellent notes on what was or was not authentic as to construction details of the eyewear.

http://www.antiquespectacles.com/treasures/mistaken.htm#




From personal experience, amber lenses seem to brighten colors and increase contrast.  This is iportant for someone likeme who has a slight red-green color deficiency.  I have also noticed that whatever color (not amber/yellow like Leupold seems to use, but maybe more toward blue-green)) that the German and Austrian optics companies use in their scope lens coating also helps in that regard.

Naphtali

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2009, 08:08:29 PM »
I'm pretty sure this question is not a hijacking of the thread. If it is, please ignore it and I'll post on its own thread.
***
You are almost addressing that facet of flintlock shooting that causes me to hesitate to have a double gun/rifle made. Shooters are partially protected from shards and gas blow-by by having the lock located on the opposite side of the gun stock from shooter's face. How is protection achieved when shooting a double gun/rifle -- that is, protection from blow-by and shards from the lock on the same side as shooter's face?

BrownBear

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Re: Flint shards
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2009, 08:38:09 PM »
Glasses.  Single barrel lefty.  Single barrel righty.  Double barrel.  Glasses.