Author Topic: Quick questions for you powder gurus  (Read 908 times)

Offline Clark B

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Quick questions for you powder gurus
« on: October 04, 2019, 07:05:46 AM »
My shooting buddy has a .54 Hawken and I have a .54 Kibler Colonial. His has a GM barrel with square rifling and mine has the round bottom Rice barrel. This past weekend we were shooting our rifles and his seems to load easier on follow up shots than mine while we both are using the same size balls and patches with the same pure neetsfoot oil lube. Other than the groove difference we were using different powder, and his barrel is 6" shorter. He was using Goex 2f and I was using Schuetzen 2f. My reloading was much stiffer, especially the last 6 inches before seating. Could the fouling with the German powder be that much harder? Should I try a different patch lube? I got bear grease and tracks mink oil lube I could try. I am going to try a few shots with his Goex as well this coming weekend to see if that changes anything. Both rifles shot very well with 100-110 gr loads.
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Offline stikshooter

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2019, 10:12:40 AM »
Round bottom needs more patch to fill grooves with same ball dimension for me ,have a Kibler SMR and my TC Hawkens all use different patch thickness . The  one thing they all have in common is each one is different !

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2019, 02:17:53 PM »
The last 6" could be a crud ring. Trying his Goex might help. Are bore diameters the same?

Also.......Mink Oil.
Pete

Online Mike Brooks

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2019, 02:26:40 PM »
Round groove barrels will shoot dirty, square grooves not so much. For most people that is. I usually find a work around.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2019, 09:53:35 PM »
Round bottom needs more patch to fill grooves with same ball dimension for me ,have a Kibler SMR and my TC Hawkens all use different patch thickness . The  one thing they all have in common is each one is different !

Well stated.

There are, however some 'rules of thumb' we have found in over 40years of playing this game.

A ball .005" under bore size and a 10oz.(.022") denim patch, lubed with water-based or mink Oil or Neetsfoot oil shoots very well indeed, in square rifling.

With deep rounded rifling, you might find an 11oz. to 14oz. denim patch (Joanne's Fabrics) & a dead soft lead ball .010" under bore size will work better for you.
that is 11oz. to 14 oz. cloth, not .011" to .014".
 
Here are two separate barrels (actually the same barrel, but shortened 6" or so, for the second test), shooting loads we guessed at, simply knowing they would shoot decently
at the 50 yard range we used.  This rifle was new to me & I've never shot it before. I do not like square notches with blade sights, but managed a couple good groups.
 Sorry for the flyers. I usually manage to do that when shooting 5-shot groups. Incidentally, the length of pull for the first set of targets, was 17". YES. Taylor did a re-build thread
on this rifle in the building forum, some time back- March or April 2018(I think).

Even though there was some cutting and burning, the thin patch worked fairly well, accuracy wise.
The second test,(bottom 3 targets) were shot with reclaimed patches from my .69 rifle & were .034" thick. There was zero cutting or burning on them and they were reusable again. I used
them at Hefley this year, but probably should have used new patches. I only got a second place with them.




« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 09:57:24 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline B.Barker

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2019, 04:11:33 AM »
I have used Goex for years and decided to try some Swiss because of everyone's great reviews. I tried ffg in a Rayle barrel and found the Swiss fouling to be less but much harder than the Goex. I know not everyone has this problem but some do. So yes try some Goex and see how it works for you. Or maybe it could be patch thickness but I would try the Goex first.

Offline Joe Schell

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2019, 05:57:36 AM »
I've been shooting schuetzen powder for the last couple years.
I have noticed i get a harder fouling with it than with goex. Try diffrent lubes or put more of it on your patches

Offline Clark B

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2019, 06:54:00 AM »
Thanks to all for the suggestions. I'll give Goex a try. If it works I'll order some more, need some anyway. I usually have a few cans hanging out but have managed to run out lately. I'll play around with other lubes and patches also. More fun as far as I'm concerned. Might even try the ballistol water mix just for grins.
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Online wolf

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2019, 12:27:33 PM »
I have a new rifle, a 40 cal. I had 2 pounds of swiss 3f when a got the rifle about a month ago. after 4 or 5 shots it starts getting hard, especially about 3 in. from where the ball seats. I have had to beat it in at times. if I swab no problem. the swiss is what dose it in mine I am sure. I am going to try goex , but the swiss is accurate,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have never "harvested" a critter but I have killed quite a few,,,,,,,,,,,

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2019, 03:42:46 PM »
It's ok to swab. It's a muzzleloader. You can use the method some use of using a really tight load or choose to swab. I swab and don't consider it a big deal.
Pete

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2019, 06:08:03 PM »
Wolf: your are right it is the Swiss. A great powder but in my .40 it's Goex 3F all the way. Mine is a Kibler SMR with a Rice barrel.
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Online wolf

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2019, 07:14:17 PM »
yep I am ordering some goex today. mine also has a rice barrel,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have never "harvested" a critter but I have killed quite a few,,,,,,,,,,,

Offline Clark B

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2019, 07:22:18 AM »
UPDATE:
Had a good day of shooting today, but then again most days are good when you're doing some recreational shooting. It was indeed the powder. I kept everything the same but used Goex 2f as the powder and the last shot was as easy to load as the first. When we were done we cleaned the barrels and mine was much easier to clean.
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Offline recurve

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2019, 04:41:49 PM »
Mr Dixon suggested to me (.50 green mnt barrel) to scotch bright/steal wool the barrel smooth out the cut rifling . it improved the grouping and smoothed the loading. also mutton tallow lube helped with the above.  before


after


changing to swiss powder also helped
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 04:44:51 PM by recurve »

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2019, 05:18:47 PM »
Recurve,

It looks like you have the issue sorted!
Rather than the scouring pads, I use finer wire wool and a mix of oil and metal polish to smooth up bores.   Solvol Autosol is grand for this job.
Run it up and down following the rifling.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2019, 04:42:53 PM »
I have used Goex for years and decided to try some Swiss because of everyone's great reviews. I tried ffg in a Rayle barrel and found the Swiss fouling to be less but much harder than the Goex. I know not everyone has this problem but some do. So yes try some Goex and see how it works for you. Or maybe it could be patch thickness but I would try the Goex first.
Are you shooting the same charge weight as Goex? I generally drop the charge about 10% or more using Swiss compared to Goex.  If you load BP to a certain pressure level/flame temp it can form a harder fouling. I have run into this with proof loads and in some loads that were just a little too much. I use 90r gr FFF in a 54 vs 100 goex, 70-90 FFF vs 90 goex in a 50 and 140 FF Swiss in a 67 caliber FL all produce very little fouling visable at the muzzle. I also used tallow, Neatsfoot oil or "Don King's gunsmith grease". For patch lube. I did find hard fouling in a 58 I rebarreled for a friend with either 110 or 120 FFF Swiss. Why the 58 I do not know. But the proof load showed hard white fouling at the muzzle. I live in a low humidity area its showing 32% at 56F this morning at sunup or a little after so fouling on the pan etc is almost always white.


I shoot 100 or more FFF in my heavy 50 cal match rifle and it has not fouling issues but I damp patch then dry patch it every shot and use a high friction lube.
The 67 caliber rifle worked fine with FF Swiss but Schuetzen would produce large flakes in the bore and block the passage in the Nock breech causing misfires.  So I shoot Swiss.

58 after proof load. I talked to Bill Knight about this and he said its the result of pressure and burn temp being high. IIRC ::)


Dan
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Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Quick questions for you powder gurus
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2019, 07:29:24 PM »
Dan - Curious ... how does one define a ‘high friction’ lube? Any example?
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into a ragged ~1/2" hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd or other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !