Knives in the time of american long rifles

[bitterbeer]

I'm buying blades to make my own knives such as green river sells but would like to find some hand forged type knives blades to use. I've contacted some makers but I can't find any who sell just the blades. Has anyone found a good supplier for blades like this?

Thanks,
Rich

[Mike Lyons]

Rich. I did the exact same thing.  I put handles on several green river knives and tried to find a maker for blanks.  The route I’m planning on taking is to buy some old files and have someone who forges help me forge several or grind them out myself.

[jcmcclure]

I'm sure there are some blade makers out there who would be willing to sell just blades. It's something I choose not to do for a number of reasons. One being there is a lot that goes into the correct heat treatment of a blade. Most of the folks who have asked for blades without heat treatment. Another factor is cost.

[Stoner creek]

I'm sure there are some blade makers out there who would be willing to sell just blades. It's something I choose not to do for a number of reasons. One being there is a lot that goes into the correct heat treatment of a blade. Most of the folks who have asked for blades without heat treatment. Another factor is cost.

Mike you’re close enough to come down and learn blade forging at my place. Anytime you want!!! Otherwise I can probably beat out a blade or two for anyone who wants and can do it at a fair price. These blades would be annealed so you’re going to be responsible for proper heat treating.

[Mike Lyons]

Rich. I haven’t found any part of this hobby that’s good for the wallet.  Thanks Stoner!!  I’ll be there as soon as I can make it happen. 

[okieboy]

 You might take a look at these forged blades at Crazy Crow. I have used one (modified it quite a bit) and was happy enough, especially for the price. I suspect that these were forged in the India/Pakistan area.

https://www.crazycrow.com/historic-american-frontier-knife-blades/hand-forged-carbon-steel-blades

[Marcruger]

That’s a heck of a nice offer from Wayne. From what I can tell, giving to others seems to be a pattern  for Wayne. God bless, Marc

[Jerry]

I'm buying blades to make my own knives such as green river sells but would like to find some hand forged type knives blades to use. I've contacted some makers but I can't find any who sell just the blades. Has anyone found a good supplier for blades like this?

Thanks,
Rich

Atlanta Cutlery

[Elnathan]

There is always this one: http://pioneerarms.com/ticonderoga_knife_and_blades.html

Supposedly a copy of the Fort Ti knife, which is one of the very, very few non-commercial blades that can actually be demonstrated to have been used in the 18th century. It isn't a very precise copy though, as you might be able to tell from the pic here: http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Ticonderoga_combo.jpg

The original has a belly to the butting edge, curves up in the middle,  and drops just a bit at the point. It is not nicely forged or filed to a good crisp silhouette, but has all kinds of irregularities of line and what Gordon Minnis refers to as "shapelessness" - very typical of original non-commerical blades but virtually never seen today. It also had a bone or antler grip with no bolster or ferrule surviving - probably just jammed on and held in with pine pitch/cutlers epoxy.

FYI, The vast, vast majority of knives used in the 18th century where cheap and readily available butcher and folding knives from Europe. I do think that people occasionally made and used one-off primitive knives prior to 1820 or so, but they are way overrepresented in this hobby. Most of the knives shown in the books are cannot be proven to date from the 18th century, and there is a pretty good chance that they date to the percussion period (after Jim Bowie introduced the Hispano-Mexican taste for big fighting knives to English-speaking America) or even as late as the Great Depression.

[Shreckmeister]

Would it be possible to rework old hickory knives. they seem to be cheap and plentiful and hold a decent edge

[Clark Badgett]

Would it be possible to rework old hickory knives. they seem to be cheap and plentiful and hold a decent edge

They have a distinct pattern stamped into them. I've cleaned up a few old flee market Old Hickories and after the cleaning the pattern was visable once more. Removing the stamped pattern might make them very then.

I love OH knives, they are my favorite kitchen knives and I've been trying to get my dad's old knives from him. He's stubborn with them knives.

[davec2]

The last time I looked there were hundreds of different blade types available on eBay.

[alacran]

Applecartcreations.com has quite a few forged blades.I won one at a the spring rendesvous at Patoka Valley Longrifles this spring. I put some scales on it. I will try to post a picture as soon as I'm done with the sheath. I'm returning it this weekend for their fall rendesvous prize table.

[bitterbeer]

Thanks for the great feedback. I have some good options and that applecartcreations look especially promising!

[Darkhorse]

Track of the Wolf used to have a selection of blades. I haven't looked at them in awhile but it might be worth checking out.

[JW]

It also depends on what you mean by “the time of the American Longrifle.” 18th century through the end of the AWI – Cheap English (French in some areas) made butcher knives (sometimes marketed as scalpers) were ubiquitous in both Anglo and Native contexts. The English knives – prior to the 1790’s – followed basic forms but varied slightly more than their French counterparts. The later cross over L trade butchers were even more standardized. Trade cutlery was cheap and while not as sexy as antler-handled local blacksmith “rifleman’s knives” we all love nowadays, it was likely what the vast majority of people carried along with a longrifle. That and/or a cheap folding knife. Ken Hamilton, Kyle Willyard, Wick Ellerbe, Eric Shatzel are a few gents who make dead-on copies of early colonial era knives. Don’t know of anyone who makes blades of these types by themselves. 

[JW]

The above post scalpers are all pre-1790's. Half-tang, three pins (sometimes two) with a slightly upswept point. Choil not as prominent as the later cross over L trade knives. Handles usually in exotic hardwoods with cutlers resin (pine pitch and brick dust) filling in the gap between the tang and the edge of the handle. Early blades seem to have been stamped with maker's marks that were symbols as opposed to letters from later knives.

[alacran]

I got the sheath and knife from prior post ready to return to Patoka Rendesvous. Taking oil cloth poncho.

[rich pierce]

I’ve got a nice English trade knife from Wick Ellerbe. Use it every day from kitchen to field. As you say not as sexy as the “rifle man’s knife” genre which to some extent is as much art as history.

[JW]

Yeah, Rich. Historically-inspired art is a good way of putting it. I love stuff like that, but I also love the actual historically-patterned objects.  These two were made by Ken Hamilton.



Notice the touch marks. These were actually copies of makers' marks which were Sheffield nock-off derivatives of more expensive London makers. Pretty interesting and the Anglo and Indian clients here were none the wiser!

Here is a copy of a common folder (made by Scott Summerville copying an original) which probably just about every man in 18th century America carried:



This pistol grip knife from Kyle Willyard is prob my favorite knife even though it's not a copy of an extant original. It has a basic scalping knife profile but is full tang which would be much more common on higher-end Euro cutlery (table knives), though the handle profile was common on trade knives as well (just as a half tang).

[Elnathan]

Track of the Wolf apparently persuaded Russell Green River to produce a copy of a 1790 cartouche knife, too:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/453/1/BLADE-NW-06

Looks like a really nice knife, thin and close to original profiles (sharper corner at the heel than the originals, but that is fixable.) The problem is that the originals were made with brass and horn handles, and these are set up to take wooden scales and the holes in the tangs are consequently drilled in the wrong places!

[Clark Badgett]

Track of the Wolf apparently persuaded Russell Green River to produce a copy of a 1790 cartouche knife, too:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/453/1/BLADE-NW-06

Looks like a really nice knife, thin and close to original profiles (sharper corner at the heel than the originals, but that is fixable.) The problem is that the originals were made with brass and horn handles, and these are set up to take wooden scales and the holes in the tangs are consequently drilled in the wrong places!

Got any more information on the cartouche knife. I think I have an old Muzzleblast article about them somewhere but it's not a very long article.

[Elnathan]

Track of the Wolf apparently persuaded Russell Green River to produce a copy of a 1790 cartouche knife, too:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/453/1/BLADE-NW-06

Looks like a really nice knife, thin and close to original profiles (sharper corner at the heel than the originals, but that is fixable.) The problem is that the originals were made with brass and horn handles, and these are set up to take wooden scales and the holes in the tangs are consequently drilled in the wrong places!

Got any more information on the cartouche knife. I think I have an old Muzzleblast article about them somewhere but it's not a very long article.

Only what can be found on the internet. Hanson's Fur Trade Cutler Sketchbook has a section on them, but my copy is packed away with a couple hundred other books in about fifty unmarked boxes in a storage unit half-an-hour's drive away, and consequently inaccessible just now.

Very little good information on English trade knives out there. I've got bits and pieces here and there, but no single source or sources that give any kind of decent overview, and my attempt to get information or even a couple research leads from one of the guys making high-end repros was strangely unproductive. Not sure why the dearth of good sources, but there it is.

[rich pierce]

See Ken Gahagan’s cartouche knife here: http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/08/cartouche-knife-made-by-ken-gahagan-and.html

[RoaringBull]

I once got the honor of looking through a friend's copy of "American Primitive Knives: 1770-1870" by Gordon B. Minnis. Very cool book with like 60 knives and all the information on them you could want. Unfortunately I've only been able to find copies of this book that were well over $100, and the Mrs would probably have a great deal of negative to say about that type of book purchase right now.