Patch questions...

[Martin S.]

I went to the range today.  Shooting a fairly new .54, I think Rice barrel, but I'll need to pull it to be sure.  Less than 25-30 rounds through the rifle.

I have another gun with a Hoyt barrel that likes a .530 ball and .018 pillow ticking patch.  It shoots well with no issues.  So I try this load in my "new" rifle.

The new rifle is blowing patches.  I mean the centers are completely gone and what is left is all burnt up.  So, I am thinking the patch is too thin?  Correct?

So, I read a lot of threads from the search mode.  Some talk about the barrel end being sharp, but I don't think that is the problem in my case.

I have a micrometer, but I am not sure how to use it.  Do I just tighten it finger tight?  Or do I squash the patch to as thin as I can get it and use that measurement?  In other words, I don't really know how thick my patch material is, except for trusting what is on the package, which says .016-.018.

So, I read about going the the Joann's fabric store and buying material there.  Cotton duck, someone says, 10 ounce, they suggest.  I go to the website and the duck they have is 8.85 ounces.  I am guessing that is going to be too thin, but I'll have to put my micrometer on it, that I don't know how to use.

Someone else suggests denim, is that like blue jean material?  That seems too thick to me, but I guess it comes in different weights.

I know my questions are all over the place, but so are my shots, and I'd like to get squared away.

If someone has a favorite fabric and source, please suggest it.

Tell me if I should squeeze the micrometer super tight or not.

I am using mink oil from Track, which the other rifle seems to like.

Another issue might be my lubing technique.  I usually put just enough mink oil on the patch to get it a little moist.  I don't saturate it.  Perhaps I should?  Does the amount of lube affect the patch to the point where it would burn up or not?  Mine patches are not just blown, they are black and burned up.

I prefer a .530 ball, so I am not having to forced the load down the barrel in a hunting situation.

I know there are lots of different opinions on this board, and every rifle is different, but I need to find a solution that works for this particular rifle.

Thank you for your kind suggestions.  This is a great group of folks with lots of knowledge.

[smylee grouch]

Squeeze the jaws tight, I like to saturate the patches and have the best luck doing so and it wont hurt to smooth up that crown.

[coupe]

Hey Martin, I don't squeeze the mic onto the fabric just bring it with a light pressure to see the uncompressed thickness. then compress with some force to see what it will be under the pressure of the loaded ball. My 54 likes the same as your older rifle, .530 ball and .018 patch. As far as lube I use 4 to 1 caster oil and Murphy oil soap dip patch squeeze out to leave the patch damp but not soaking wet, even put a dry patch on each side to soak up a little more if needed and then wet them next continue till all are done. I use a 1 1/2" hole saw teeth ground off to a sharp edge put the now punch and pillow ticking into my vise or press with a board backer and cut my patches, then store the lubed patches in a pill bottle ready for loading. What charge and what f and what make of powder for your load? DO check the crown of the muzzle to make sure it is not sharp. Now with all this said I still get a blown patch here and there. I do use an over powder wad I make from 1/8" thick felt, cause I load 80 gr. of 2f goex it seems to give better accuracy.

[Mike Lyons]

I used my calipers to tell me thicker and thinner patch material. Once you find what material shoots best, you’ll know what to stick with.  It really doesn’t matter what the exact thickness is on the package.  I’ve found that the packaged stuff is inconsistent.  What matters is that you use what size patch material works in your gun.  Besides,  what you call .018, others will call .016 and so on. 

[Clark Badgett]

I tried .018" patch and .530 ball and for the life of me could not start it with a short starter. Tried .015" and same ball and it went in fine for 1st shot and next shot was a bear to pound down the bore all the while worrying that my rammer was going to break. Ended up with .010 and .530 ball with pure neetsfoot oil or mink oil and it loads shot after shot and I've hit 200 yd steel with it twice out of 3 tries. Patches recovered were a bit frazzled but intact, and bore cleaned easy. The barrel is a Rice also.

I am going to revisit the .015" patch this weekend now that I'm using GOEX.

[Martin S.]

The load is for deer, so 100 grains of Swiss 2F.

Older gun does fine with this, but maybe too much for newer gun?

Barrel is unmarked, I'll have to ask the maker for more information.

I am going hunting tomorrow with my older gun, I'll get back on the internet on Sunday.

Thanks for the help.

[mtlonghunter]

I've been using hemp fabric for patching for the last half dozen years. Much prefer it to cotton. It's available in a couple different weights from about 12 to 25 thousands so you have to find one close and adjust ball size sometimes depending on how you like the fit.

[Darkhorse]

I  use a .530 round ball and .018 patch in my .54 and it's really hard to start. But I still use it for my first hunting shot and it's lubed with Bore Butter for that shot only. Follow up shots are patched with .015 patch and Canola oil for the lube. Both of these lubes shoot to POI and neither will cause a rust ring even if the rifle is left loaded for several weeks at a time.
I bought the .018 at a fabric store over 10 years ago and still have several yards left for the future.
However all the .015 I could find left a lot to be desired as to integrity and a tight weave. So I tried some of Eastern Maines shooting supplies .015 patch material and I'm well pleased with it so far. It is tough and has a tight weave. I've shot it in both a .40 and .54 caliber rifle and I like it.
During the break in phase with that Rice barrel I would change my lube for general shooting. While at Eastern Maine purchase a bottle of Mr. Flintlock's Patch lube if they are still selling it. This lube is a wet lube and will cut through the fouling better than the grease type lubes allowing easier loading and more shots between cleaning.
When I first began shooting my Rice barrel in .40 caliber I could hardly load the 2nd and 3rd shots, too much fouling. I tried some Original LeHigh Valley Lube and it cut right through the fouling and made it much easier to load that rifle. Now that rifle has several hundred shots fired through it and I can use any lube without problems.
I don't consider the wet lubes to be a hunting lube as they will dry out and cause problems. I use the grease type such as TOW Mink oil for hunting.

[hanshi]

Same here.  I use mink oil for the bush and Hoppes for everything else.  Hoppes does make seating very easy but both Hoppes and mink oil seat load after load with no wiping.  I use more than one kind of patching depending on the gun; .012" to .024".  Mostly I use the thicker material.  The loads are fairly tight but still easily seated with the wood underbarrel rod.  The "secret", if you can call it that, is a very snug patch/ball fit.  Each load pushes the previous shots fouling down on the powder making it possible to keep loading & shooting.  Rice barrels tend to be very smooth from the get-go and shouldn't damage patches.  Other barrels also treat patches well especially after a hundred or two hundred shots.

My favorite patches are cut from drop cloth type canvas.  It's reasonably thick, but more importantly it is tough.  Pillow and mattress ticking work fine in some rifles and gets a bit of use by me.  Denim is hard to beat for toughness but I find it seats grudgingly in some bores.

[WadePatton]

For comparing patch materials in your possession it matters not how you measure fabric, only that you get consistent, repeatable results when you measure it.   Exactly how you achieve this measurement is only important if your are comparing to other folks measurements and you know how they are getting their readings.   Some use calipers, some use micrometers. Theoretically it all works out.  I like to double my patch for measuring, then half the result or use the full number to add up "combo" size.

The only patch I've burned right through was a double-charged load.  I hunt with 85g in my 54 and patch with cutoff logger's jean denim which is sold as 14oz cotton.

The problem with denim these days is that much of it is stretchy denim for our "comfort".  You never want non-natural fibers in your patch material. So watch for that.  It's more about the weave than the natural fiber some say. 

Possibly your new bbl is faster twisted than the old bbl and this gives the powder time/resistance enough to burn up the patch.  Wet that patch.

[Tilefish]

I have 54cal green mountain barrel could not get it to shoot a good group tell I went to 10oz denim patches and a .530 ball with mink oil lube. Also shoot 110gr 2f. Tried .015 pillow ticking and would burn through patches. Hope this helps.

[Hungry Horse]

I have a .50 cal. SMR, with a Montana .50 cal. Barrel that is 1 in 72” twist. It drove me crazy trying to get it to stop blowing patches. I ran out of patches one day, and tried the only patch material I had, which was about ten thousandths. It shot fine. the patches didn’t burn up, and the accuracy was good. I shoot 90 grains of 3F Goex in it.

  Hungry Horse

[satwel]

FWIW, I buy the 40lb pocket drill cloth at Joanne's Fabric. Last time I measured it was between .018 and .020. I've used it in all my flintlocks for years, including my .54 that likes a .530 ball. Retrieved patches could be used again, just a little singed on one side. My rifles have either Green Mountain or Colerain barrels. You might want to give pocket drill a try.

You might also try linen. A guy shooting next to me at a match this summer was singing the praises of linen for patching. He said he buys it at Joanne's Fabrics and it's not cheap. Linen has a really tight weave and a high thread count. I don't know what thickness he was using. I've never used linen myself but he swears by it.

[Mike from OK]

I have a .50 cal. SMR, with a Montana .50 cal. Barrel that is 1 in 72” twist. It drove me crazy trying to get it to stop blowing patches. I ran out of patches one day, and tried the only patch material I had, which was about ten thousandths. It shot fine. the patches didn’t burn up, and the accuracy was good. I shoot 90 grains of 3F Goex in it.

  Hungry Horse

What do you think the issue was? Thicker patches getting cut during loading?

Mike

[Mike_StL]

My favorite patch material is the #40 cotton drill from JoAnns Fabrics.  As stated above it is 0.017" in thickness and has a tight weave.  Look for it in the utility cloth section.  Linen is a good choice too.  Be sure it is 100% from flax.  You want a tight weave.  Linen doesn't compress as much at cotton.  There are too many blends with polyesters and those just don't work right.

Now we have to look at why you are blowing out the center of your patch.  Take a long patching strip and drive your ball first with the short starter to put the ball in at the muzzle.  Pull it out to look for cuts and tears.  This checks out the crown.  If you have a patch with no tears and very tiny cuts, then the crown is okay.  Next in a different section of the patch strip, push the ball down a couple of inches and look at that patch.  Once again look for cuts and tears. There if you have the cuts and tears you will have to polish up the edges or use a smaller ball with a thicker patch.  Look at the ball.  Is the patch material leaving the weave pattern where the grooves are in the rifle?

What is the land to land diameter of the barrel?  You will need a caliper that can perform inside measurements.  A cheap digital caliper will do fine and you can use it to measure the thickness of the patch material.

If you have been on any of these boards, you will know that every rifle barrel can be different and a different ball, patch, lubricant, and powder may be required. 

Probably need to smooth out the crown if it cuts patches.  Otherwise shoot it about 100 more times and see if the patches survive better.

[Martin S.]

Thanks to all for the excellent suggestions.

Looks like I need to make a trip to Joann's, and place an order with Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies.

The rifle's maker said it was a Rice barrel, and he suggested that my patch/ball combo was too small, and that I was getting blow out due to the lack of sealing.

So, I am going to follow a lot of your suggestions, and try some different patch and lube combinations.

Thanks for all the help, and I will report back when I get some better results at the range.

[David Price]

When I start shooting a new barrel, I always start by using a .020 pre lubed patch.  I do this with all cal.  The reason I like use the thickest patch I can use,  is because I figure the thicker patch will hold more lubricant., and a thick patch is stronger than a thin one.    If it blows a patch or is too hard to load I first adjust the size of the ball not the patch.  If I can't correct the problem I will then use the next size smaller thickness patch. I also give a new barrel 100 strokes with 0000steel wool before I even fire the first shot.  I think this is a logical way to work with a new barrel.  I have sighted in hundreds of barrels and always manage to find the right combination  by using this system.

David Price

[okawbow]

If it’s a Rice barrel, I’ve found they shoot fine without any break in. If it’s a deep groove barrel, it needs thick patches. A good ball starter makes loading easy. Once the ball is drove in past the muzzle, it loads and seats with no undue force. Accuracy in my .54 Rice barrel is outstanding with a .535 ball and a .022” denim patch cut from the back legs of old blue jeans. I use a mix of 6 to 1 water and Balistol for woods walks and paper targets, and home made Bear oil for hunting. Patches look re-usable after shooting.

[smallpatch]

Rice barrels need no break in.  .005" undersized ball, .020" patch, powder as needed.
First 7 shots out of a new barrel.

[Daryl]

Small patch has THE formula.
The only improvement I could suggest is a thicker patch if needed.

[Mike_StL]

Martin,
Your builder/maker should be able to suggest a ball and patch combination to start the load development process.

Well, we can set a task for your calipers.  Measure the land to land dimension of the barrel.  Most often its the rifle that decides the ball to use even if we want to use something different.  Your 0.530 is certainly a good choice, but your rifle may prefer a 0.535.  The load development should start with measurements.  Sure, Rice Barrel can tell us the design plan, but its best to actually measure.  The first dimension needed is the land to land dimension.  A ball 0.010" under this dimension is a recommended starting size.  The next measurement needs to the groove to groove dimension.  Use that to determine the groove depth.  (Groove to Groove - Land to land)/2.  The groove depth plus 0.005 is a good number for the compressed thickness of the patch.  Yes, the patch is compressed to 0.005 over the lands and is somewhat loose in the grooves.  A patch like this will require a starter to get the ball loaded.  Then if you have radiused grooves all these calculations may provide the desired performance.

In any event, it may just be easier to try several patch thicknesses.   

[MuskratMike]

With all the fine shooters out there promoting a tight ball and thick patch combination, and knowing our forefathers probably didn't use a 'short starter". How did they get the balls down using just a precious ramrod that they wouldn't want breaking forcing balls down?
 As for the "Muskrat" on my new .54 rifle and pistol set (both with Rice barrels) I use .530 roundballs, with a .015 ticking patch and nothing but Neatsfoot oil on my pre-cut patches. Still need a starter but don't have to force them down the barrel and patches are actually reusable after firing using 75 grains of Goex 3F in the rifle.

[Mike from OK]

knowing our forefathers probably didn't use a 'short starter". How did they get the balls down using just a precious ramrod that they wouldn't want breaking forcing balls down?

This site is where I get most of my info about Longrifles and muzzleloading in general... So this is just a "guess" on my part...

Barrels were coned at the muzzle to allow easier starting and negating the use of a short starter.

Mike

[JW]

knowing our forefathers probably didn't use a 'short starter". How did they get the balls down using just a precious ramrod that they wouldn't want breaking forcing balls down?

This site is where I get most of my info about Longrifles and muzzleloading in general... So this is just a "guess" on my part...

Barrels were coned at the muzzle to allow easier starting and negating the use of a short starter.

Mike

We’ll likely never know exactly how our forebears loaded rifles until someone finds an extant copy of “Daniel Morgan’s treatise on the Loading Sequence of the American Rifleman.” That said, there are clues. Recall at the Battle of Saratoga, riflemen disengaged because their rifles were too fouled to load. That would at least indicate that they weren’t able to shoot all day long without wiping their bores. Add to that the fact that the precision many seek today was not possible given the technology of 200 plus years ago. Inability to measure patch thickness, irregular ball molds, and questionable powder quality all likely contributed to a less than precise experience. 

Examine original bores and most (if not all) rifle bores are relieved at the muzzle. The relief is subtle and not as dramatic as modern cones (or the modern crowns guys love to put on their guns), but it’s enough to start a ball without a starter – perhaps by choking up on a rod or even possibly using thumb pressure. Mike Miller uses a small chainsaw file to replicate that crown on the rifles he builds. Very straightforward, but takes a steady hand.

Anecdotal evidence points to some folks (like Boone) wiping their smoothbores between shots. I would wager that many wiped their rifle bores more often than modern guys like to.

[Daryl]

knowing our forefathers probably didn't use a 'short starter". How did they get the balls down using just a precious ramrod that they wouldn't want breaking forcing balls down?

This site is where I get most of my info about Longrifles and muzzleloading in general... So this is just a "guess" on my part...

Barrels were coned at the muzzle to allow easier starting and negating the use of a short starter.

Mike

Coned muzzles are actually harder to load with tight combinations, Mike. A smooth radius makes loading easy, but with a short starter in calibres .45 and over.
Calibers under .40, a starter is not needed, even though loading bore size balls and .022" patches. Pushing them into the muzzle with a thumb is rather ridiculous
thought, though. That isn't going to happen, however, a choked up rod and pressure will form the ball and patch into the bore, then down it goes.
This video is loading a .45 calibre longrifle with a .445" pure lead ball and 10ox. denim patch that I measure compressed at .0225".  We have finished our shooting for
the day and decided to make a video. I had fired between 50 and 55shots, no wiping. I was using winter windshield washer fluid with a bit of neetsfoot oil added, maybe
 1oz per 8 ounces off washer fluid.
The fellow shooting with me, is Hatchet Jack.  He had fired more rounds than I have as he starts shooting a good hour before we arrive. No wiping needed. He is shooting a
.600" ball with .018" ticking patch, some sort of wet lube.
No "ramming" was needed to get the balls down either of our bores.

Never mind, I see videos don't work on the site, anymore.