Author Topic: Patch questions...  (Read 5426 times)

Offline Frank

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 968
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2019, 09:15:15 PM »
Put the video on YouTube and post a link.

Offline Mike from OK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2019, 12:06:38 AM »
Perhaps "coned" wasn't the best descriptor...

Would "relieved" in one form or another be more accurate?

As to precision...

How much under bore size did the typical ball mold of the day throw? Measurement of the day was usually not about a specific number in thousandths of in inch... But a close approximation to a given size by measuring with calipers and using that measurement to size the mating piece... i.e. ball molds were sized to the bore diameter instead of vice versa.

Mike

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
  • Oklahoma
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2019, 01:14:28 AM »
Perhaps "coned" wasn't the best descriptor...

Would "relieved" in one form or another be more accurate?

As to precision...

How much under bore size did the typical ball mold of the day throw? Measurement of the day was usually not about a specific number in thousandths of in inch... But a close approximation to a given size by measuring with calipers and using that measurement to size the mating piece... i.e. ball molds were sized to the bore diameter instead of vice versa.

Mike

Most measurements given before the invention of micrometer measuring tools were give in hundredths of an inch if not outright fractions. Bores were normally spoken of in bore sizes, except for martial arms which seem to always be mentioned in 100ths of an inch.
Psalms 144

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2019, 01:32:58 AM »
As Daryl described loading without a short starter I remember I did that for years just using the rod and "choking" up on it.  I had stronger hands back then and it would be difficult how.  My rifle was a .45 and I never thought much about it.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline JW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2019, 06:52:25 PM »
knowing our forefathers probably didn't use a 'short starter". How did they get the balls down using just a precious ramrod that they wouldn't want breaking forcing balls down?

This site is where I get most of my info about Longrifles and muzzleloading in general... So this is just a "guess" on my part...

Barrels were coned at the muzzle to allow easier starting and negating the use of a short starter.

Mike


Coned muzzles are actually harder to load with tight combinations, Mike. A smooth radius makes loading easy, but with a short starter in calibres .45 and over.
Calibers under .40, a starter is not needed, even though loading bore size balls and .022" patches. Pushing them into the muzzle with a thumb is rather ridiculous
thought, though. That isn't going to happen, however, a choked up rod and pressure will form the ball and patch into the bore, then down it goes.
This video is loading a .45 calibre longrifle with a .445" pure lead ball and 10ox. denim patch that I measure compressed at .0225".  We have finished our shooting for
the day and decided to make a video. I had fired between 50 and 55shots, no wiping. I was using winter windshield washer fluid with a bit of neetsfoot oil added, maybe
 1oz per 8 ounces off washer fluid.
The fellow shooting with me, is Hatchet Jack.  He had fired more rounds than I have as he starts shooting a good hour before we arrive. No wiping needed. He is shooting a
.600" ball with .018" ticking patch, some sort of wet lube.
No "ramming" was needed to get the balls down either of our bores.

Never mind, I see videos don't work on the site, anymore.

 

I can see how putting a smooth radius on a rifle and measuring patch thicknesses and using special lubes and not needing to wipe between shots is all very advantageous. As I mentioned in my previous post, that was not likely possible 200 years ago and anecdotal evidence points to folks being used to wiping their bores. Add to that the lack of precision due to the technology available and men weren’t bringing micrometers to the fabric store.

Given the above and given the fact that original muzzles were subtly relieved along with the lack of evidence for short starters in the 18th and early 19th century, I prefer not to put a modern radius crown on my guns or use a short starter. I’m in the minority, no doubt. It’s fine with me that there is potentially a loss in accuracy because I don’t have the absolute tightest loads possible. For me personally (and other folks I know who love living history) I like to use this particular technology within the reasonable limits it may originally have achieved. Otherwise, why stop at short starts and measuring patch thicknesses?

This is not meant as a dig at those who put modern radius crowns on their guns or use short starters or who achieve maximum accuracy due to these additions. What I see on this forum is often a dismissal of anything other than using the established modern methods. But lo, I’m a “stitch nazi” and I care about the wrong things!

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7910
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2019, 07:37:57 PM »
A lot of people have tried to research "short starters" but come up empty handed. That does not mean there wasnt a tool used for that purpose, if you research "bulger" you might find such a tool.  Bulger, a short stout stick fitting the bore with a nob for hand purchase started the patched ball down the muzzle.  This last was a quote from a first hand account discribing the equipage of some trappers leaving rondyvous for the fall hunt.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15841
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2019, 08:00:23 PM »
The British issued short "pegs", as well as a mallet (the handle was the starter shaft) to the rifle corps.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline JW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 74
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2019, 11:36:10 PM »
Yes, mallets were initially issued to the British Riflecorps along with the Baker (with iron rammers) for a brief period before they were abandoned in 1802 (or ’03?). The earlier Pattern 1776 British rifle was not issued with a mallet either at first or at all. That single fact does not convince me that North Americans in the 18th century (or the first half of the 19th century, for that matter), used short starters. There are dozens and dozens of references to things like ramrods, powder horns, worms, ball molds, greased patching, etc. but no mention anywhere of a short starter unless you count a brief experiment by early Napoleonic Era British War Dept’s issuing of a mallet.

Due to the lack of specific documentation to short starters and mallets for rifle loading on the frontier and the fact that period homespun cloth was much thicker than today’s modern cloth based on known research, I would wager that riflemen used the thick homespun cloth and a smaller ball in order to load their rifles. A thick patch and a smaller ball combination loads much easier. Surely there was much more gas blow which no doubt contributed to rifle refreshing that was common.

I point again to the account of Morgan’s riflemen at Saratoga disengaging because their rifles were too fouled to load. They were not issued mallets. That said, most of the accounts of reloading from the American frontier dispose of all modern conceptions of firearms safety. Spit balls from the mouth, tamping the bare ball on the ground to seat it, loading directly from the horn, etc. This is what most of us would do in a life or death situation. We wouldn’t pull out a bullet board or cut patches at the muzzle…

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2019, 04:21:54 AM »
"Ball starter" I shall evermore say!

Because I do not start shorts.  I start balls.


 
Hold to the Wind

Offline MuskratMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2263
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2019, 04:29:15 AM »
Well played Wade, well played.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2019, 04:40:40 AM »
I suspect the grooves are too deep. They need not be over .010-.012 max. Bigger ball might help.
Also try some 0000 steel wool on on a jag, TIGHT fit. Some oil. Do about 40 passed through the bore.
Patch lube will not blow patches. I shoot very dry patches in my McLemore barrel and it is fine. But I also use a .498-.500 ball andits got narrow lands so it loads easier than one with wide lands.
Starters that do more than set the ball flush with the muzzle are not needed unless using a loading block.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2019, 04:46:52 AM »
Yes, mallets were initially issued to the British Riflecorps along with the Baker (with iron rammers) for a brief period before they were abandoned in 1802 (or ’03?). The earlier Pattern 1776 British rifle was not issued with a mallet either at first or at all. That single fact does not convince me that North Americans in the 18th century (or the first half of the 19th century, for that matter), used short starters. There are dozens and dozens of references to things like ramrods, powder horns, worms, ball molds, greased patching, etc. but no mention anywhere of a short starter unless you count a brief experiment by early Napoleonic Era British War Dept’s issuing of a mallet.

Due to the lack of specific documentation to short starters and mallets for rifle loading on the frontier and the fact that period homespun cloth was much thicker than today’s modern cloth based on known research, I would wager that riflemen used the thick homespun cloth and a smaller ball in order to load their rifles. A thick patch and a smaller ball combination loads much easier. Surely there was much more gas blow which no doubt contributed to rifle refreshing that was common.

I point again to the account of Morgan’s riflemen at Saratoga disengaging because their rifles were too fouled to load. They were not issued mallets. That said, most of the accounts of reloading from the American frontier dispose of all modern conceptions of firearms safety. Spit balls from the mouth, tamping the bare ball on the ground to seat it, loading directly from the horn, etc. This is what most of us would do in a life or death situation. We wouldn’t pull out a bullet board or cut patches at the muzzle…

When we consider fouling we have to remember that the US forces may not have had very good powder and even the British Army was probably using stamp mill powder in the 1770s. Its not as well made as wheel mill powder and military grade powder at any time was not considered the best for rifles. Normal procedure was to wipe between shots. Usually with tallow.  I suspect that spit patches were known at the time. But powder that burns poorly, by our standards, is going to cause problems. Out here where its dry blowiing down the bore is needed between shots unless a water  based lube is used. I don't use water.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2019, 06:25:09 AM »
knowing our forefathers probably didn't use a 'short starter". How did they get the balls down using just a precious ramrod that they wouldn't want breaking forcing balls down?

This site is where I get most of my info about Longrifles and muzzleloading in general... So this is just a "guess" on my part...

Barrels were coned at the muzzle to allow easier starting and negating the use of a short starter.

Mike


Coned muzzles are actually harder to load with tight combinations, Mike. A smooth radius makes loading easy, but with a short starter in calibres .45 and over.
Calibers under .40, a starter is not needed, even though loading bore size balls and .022" patches. Pushing them into the muzzle with a thumb is rather ridiculous
thought, though. That isn't going to happen, however, a choked up rod and pressure will form the ball and patch into the bore, then down it goes.
This video is loading a .45 calibre longrifle with a .445" pure lead ball and 10ox. denim patch that I measure compressed at .0225".  We have finished our shooting for
the day and decided to make a video. I had fired between 50 and 55shots, no wiping. I was using winter windshield washer fluid with a bit of neetsfoot oil added, maybe
 1oz per 8 ounces off washer fluid.
The fellow shooting with me, is Hatchet Jack.  He had fired more rounds than I have as he starts shooting a good hour before we arrive. No wiping needed. He is shooting a
.600" ball with .018" ticking patch, some sort of wet lube.
No "ramming" was needed to get the balls down either of our bores.

Never mind, I see videos don't work on the site, anymore.

 

I can see how putting a smooth radius on a rifle and measuring patch thicknesses and using special lubes and not needing to wipe between shots is all very advantageous. As I mentioned in my previous post, that was not likely possible 200 years ago and anecdotal evidence points to folks being used to wiping their bores. Add to that the lack of precision due to the technology available and men weren’t bringing micrometers to the fabric store.

Given the above and given the fact that original muzzles were subtly relieved along with the lack of evidence for short starters in the 18th and early 19th century, I prefer not to put a modern radius crown on my guns or use a short starter. I’m in the minority, no doubt. It’s fine with me that there is potentially a loss in accuracy because I don’t have the absolute tightest loads possible. For me personally (and other folks I know who love living history) I like to use this particular technology within the reasonable limits it may originally have achieved. Otherwise, why stop at short starts and measuring patch thicknesses?

This is not meant as a dig at those who put modern radius crowns on their guns or use short starters or who achieve maximum accuracy due to these additions. What I see on this forum is often a dismissal of anything other than using the established modern methods. But lo, I’m a “stitch nazi” and I care about the wrong things!

Have you read T K Dawsons description of the bore/choke/relief in the barrel on the so called "Parkman" rifle in Baird's " Hawken Rifles..."? Its not what is done today to "cone" a muzzle its much more like a modern crown. Its the only description of the bore or an original rifle that i know of at least by someone who would know how to measure it. There have ALWAYS been three, at least, classes of shooters. Gun owners, shooters and riflemen. The last is lot more finicky about how his rifle performs. And remember shooting off hand was not common until at least the 2nd quarter of the 19th C and "beef shoots" and such were REST MATCHES well into the 20th c. So when we hear of shooting exhibitions by some rifle company in the revolution, they were surely shooting from a rest and probably from prone. The rifle darned well better shoot good at 60 yards or the maker can't sell many rifles. Yeah, people paid attention. To get into Morgan's Rifleman you had to demonstrate  skill with the rifle. So the "gun owner" and "shooter classes probably would not make the cut.  Patch lube was generally tallow. Patching was generally linen sometimes much finer than we can get easily, if at all, today, since it was more common, stronger and less flammable that cotton. Today almost nobody shoots a match that is really traditional.  Offhand was considered a poor test of the rifle. This form did not really take off in the US until Schuetzen shooting became popular. And remember they often shot form money or reasonable valuable prizes and often the shots were limited. In a beef shoot they would shot at a center one shot each for each quarter, the head, the hide and tallow. Or so I have read. So the match might only be 6-8 shots.  Watch Gary Cooper in the movie "Sgt York". 
Short starters.  I don't use one the shaft on the starter I use is less than 3/8" long.  Look in (IIRC) "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850"  there you will find well what the heck. This. Cooke was born in 1761. We will never know when he started using the bullet board. But its does not look "new" here. HMM... I thought the photo in the book showed a starter. Now I gotta bother to look.... Nope no starter.  Darn I was sure there was a starter in the other photo. But I was ru, wro, wrong. I hate when that happens. Gear is interesting just the same for those who have not seen it. He was old enough to have fought in the Revolution.

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2019, 06:38:18 AM »
With all the fine shooters out there promoting a tight ball and thick patch combination, and knowing our forefathers probably didn't use a 'short starter". How did they get the balls down using just a precious ramrod that they wouldn't want breaking forcing balls down?
 As for the "Muskrat" on my new .54 rifle and pistol set (both with Rice barrels) I use .530 roundballs, with a .015 ticking patch and nothing but Neatsfoot oil on my pre-cut patches. Still need a starter but don't have to force them down the barrel and patches are actually reusable after firing using 75 grains of Goex 3F in the rifle.
Honestly? They know how. I can load a .535 in a Douglas 54 with a heavy ticking patch with the rod and its decades old and tapers to about 5/16" at the small end. I did a video I did a few years ago demonstrating this but can't find it right now, thought it was on  youTube. But this puts a lot of stress on the wrist. I use a (really) short starter for the swivel breech since its not quite as tough as the Hawken.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15841
Re: Patch questions...
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2019, 04:46:00 AM »
As I am more interested in hitting more targets than not, I choose to use a tighter, more accurate combination that actually requires a short starter (in deference to the rifle's wrist longevity), in calibers over .40.
.40 & under, a starter is not necessary as I have demonstrated many times to the local lads. Those combinations are using 10 oz denim that I measure at .0225", with a ball .003" under bore size in the .40, and bore size in the .32.
That same .0225" patch is really easy loading in the new .36 bl. with a .010" undersized ball. I expect that Rice barrel has only .008" to .010" deep rifling. A bare .360" ball will sit on the muzzle, so it is slightly smaller than .360" bore size. Doesn't matter as I used some of the .360's (from my pouch) with the same patch on the squirrel trail at Hefley Creek last fall.  I did use a starter as it is simply routine with my loading regime. IIRC, I won that contest. ;) Missed 2 targets out of 22, maybe 23. My own @!*% fault, those squirrel targets were out at about 65 & 75 yards & I wasn't holding any elevation when the shot broke.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V