key alignment

[Prospector8083]

Not to be a pest,but do you guys have any methods/tricks to get a perfect key alignment on a hawken rifle? For some reason I am having trouble either too loose or too tight.My keys are pegged but I just can't seem to get it perfect.I am also interested in learning engraving and wood carving.How would you all achieve this goal if you lived in central California,farmer stock.

[Metalshaper]

either set the loop with a light tap of the hammer, while the key is in there.. or put a slight arch in the key, belly towards the bottom of the stock..
beyond that, try to be more careful fitting and filing while cutting/fitting them in??

I can get them right, every once in a while.

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[smylee grouch]

A lot better builder than I told me to start with under-sized dril bits then switch to slightly under-sized key and use that key to burn the hole through.  I havent tried that yey but it sounded like a good plan. 

[davec2]

I don't like keys that are too tight or too loose and sometimes that just changes with the humidity. I decided to modify the keys I used on a rifle to include a fairly stout friction spring.  I cut a shallow slot in each key on a mill, made a leaf spring for each one and then riveted the spring in place using a brass tack as a rivet.  The keys slide in fairly easily but hold very firmly.  Not HC, I expect, but I like things that are self adjusting and won't be as subject to humidity and temperature changes as I have experienced thus far with keys. 

[smylee grouch]

Hi Dave, the hump in those springs look like they would bear just past the barrel loop and keep them from sliding out, is that right or is my imagination amuck?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

How does that system work with a keeper pin passing through the key?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The slots you make in the wood should be doing all of the work of holding the key tightly.  Do not rely on the escutcheon plates...they simply protect the wood around the key.
I drill mine out undersized, use a thin chisel to remove the web between the drilled holes, and burn the wood out with the key itself for final fit.  Getting the heat right for burning is critical too.  Too much and you remove too much wood.

[davec2]

Taylor,

A very small flat head nail under the spring will work as a keeper.  You could also use a pin with no head that does not stick up above the thickness of the key.  Depends on the shape of the stock at that point and how much wood there is for the keeper.  I don't bother with a keeper.  I don't loose the pins on a pinned barrel and I haven't lost any keys on a keyed barrel.  And as you say, the slot needs to fit correctly anyway.  The spring is not a cure for a sloppy fit between the stock and the key....it just is more compliant than the wood if the humidity changes much.  I think it was you that once mentioned in a post about how your patchbox brass fit perfectly flush with the stock at home but when you brought it to Dixion's (or ?) the judges gigged you for having the brass stand slightly proud of the stock surface......humidity changes......!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Dave.  That explains things nicely.  I always set the pins just inside the barrel channel, and I have to be very careful drilling for them, as there is almost no wood below the key and one risks coming out through the bottom side of the forestock.  I always have to lengthen the slots in commercial keys for that reason.
The key inlet in my Joseph Lang rifle is so close that no pin was ever installed, though there is a slot for one in the key.  You cannot withdraw the key with your fingernail...have to use a popsicle stick to push it out.

[longcruise]

either set the loop with a light tap of the hammer, while the key is in there.. or put a slight arch in the key, belly towards the bottom of the stock..
beyond that, try to be more careful fitting and filing while cutting/fitting them in??

I can get them right, every once in a while.

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

A lot better builder than I told me to start with under-sized dril bits then switch to slightly under-sized key and use that key to burn the hole through.  I havent tried that yey but it sounded like a good plan. 

I used that method on a tiny key on a kid gun.  Worked good.

[smylee grouch]

Dave, I,m wondering if you could shorten up the free end of that spring and make enough room for a keeper pin

[smart dog]

Hi,
It is not the wood that should be providing the fit.  For barrel keys you want barrel lugs that are at least 3/16" wide.  The metal on metal fit of the key and lug should be the deciding factor without wood that can swell and contract having much effect at all. The barrel on the left shows a proper lug that maintains smooth tension on the key.

The next photo also shows a good lug although it is set up on barrel bands for a Spanish barrel.

Thin lugs are useless for keys. You want smooth metal on metal tension not wood on metal.

dave

[mikeyfirelock]

I just ran into the same problem on a light offhand rifle I am building.  I solved the loose key problem by cutting some very thin shims and gluing them to the top of my cuts in the stock, then refitting the key till it just passes, and holds the barrel tightly in place.  Simple and easy.

[flehto]

Have made a few  Mlers w/ keys and just use a metal/wood fit and haven't had any trouble w/ the fits later on.....my first LR had keys , was built in 1976  and the key fit has never been "adjusted" How were the original Hawkens made... I think they were very simply made asre the keys and the fit.
The "keyhole" slots  are  carefully laid out on the stock   and a  series of  small drill holes  removes a lot of the wood and these holes are located lower to leave some wood for filing the key/lug  fit w/ the slot's upper surface.  The webs between the holes  are cut out w/ a narrow chisel and a thin needle file{could be burned out w/ an undersized key} ......I always take a little more off the slot's  bottom surface {an escutcheon  hides this} and then file the slot's upper surface for a nice press fit of the key and bbl lug.

The escutcheons {called "inlays" henceforth} are made but the slots of the inlays for the lower forrestock are different than those of the upper forestock. The  lower  forestock  inlays {2} have  a slot barely larger than the key which is used to locate the inlay for inletting. Hawkens have 2 per side like this. 

Inletting and making the inlay  slots   for the upper forestock  is more complicated because of the forestock's  angled, rounded surface. I make the slots narrower than the key by .005/side  and when locating the inlay for inletting, the upper surface of the inlay  slot is lower by approx. .012 than the slot's upper surface in the stock. Inletting the inlay on a slanted  surface causes the inlay to move upwards. After inletting, the slots in   the inlays are filed  using the slots in the wood as a guide. The slots in the inlays end up being at an angle to the inlay.  As was said....the keys should not bear on the inlay slots.

I use pins made from paper clips to fasten  the inlays and the pins have a ctsk head and raised barbs on the dia.{ a very small amount of epoxy  in the holes can also be used.} After the pins are in, the heads and inlays  are filed smooth. This is one method for installing and making keys and  inlays and no doubt there are others. Sorry for the long post.....Fred








 

[Dphariss]

The slots you make in the wood should be doing all of the work of holding the key tightly.  Do not rely on the escutcheon plates...they simply protect the wood around the key.
I drill mine out undersized, use a thin chisel to remove the web between the drilled holes, and burn the wood out with the key itself for final fit.  Getting the heat right for burning is critical too.  Too much and you remove too much wood.

As Taylor says they gotta fit the wood tight. Especially if a full stock with no escutcheons.
I make a key into a fine tooth broach with a file and drive it through once drilled, cut and filed close to final fit. If the fit is close I put a good bevel on the key and just force it through but the fit has to be close for this. A 4" square file ground safe of 2  opposite sides to under key thickness is a great help. A coarse square needle file can be used but be careful. Its easy to over do when they get close. Thus the broach idea.
If they are loose in the wood some stock finish might tighten them up but wax the keys well. Or epoxy if the keys are well waxed. But epoxy can be scary

Dan

[Prospector8083]

Wow! Brilliant ideas! I especially like Dave's idea! There is so much knowledge on this board! My buddy Ozzie has been wanting to show me how much he has learned with his new machining tools and I believe I will try Dave's idea and not pin it as it is not needed. How about the carving? I don't want to do any unless it's perfect so I assume there is a lot of practice. Is there  a good utube you guys would recommend? Thank you all for being so friendly and helpful! I have already learned a lot and looking forward to my next projects. Hate to admit it but I ordered my Track's Hawken stock the lowest grade of maple.Big mistake! I don't like it at all as it turned a completely different color(ugly red)! Soooo,I ordered a new stock of the best curly maple,should keep me busy for a while. Thanks again and hope to see you in person some day! Yeah I know I could restain it but what is the old saying about a sow's ear!

[smylee grouch]

Hi Prospector: Were you thinking of carving the Hawken?

[Prospector8083]

Oh no, Plain and simple with beautiful curly maple! I have two Kibler kits on order(both kinds) and will not receive them for 2 to 3 months. I plan on really doing up the colonial rifle as I love a crossed tomahawk with tobacco leaf! I want to learn enough with Ron's class to do a near perfect job or practice until I am able to do so. Where can I get a lock engraved with one word in script? My rifles are all named "Sweetlips" in honor of noted ranger and indian fighter. He always loaded two balls if he had plenty of lead!

[Prospector8083]

Whoops! His name is Bigfoot Wallace!

[Dphariss]

Hi,
It is not the wood that should be providing the fit.  For barrel keys you want barrel lugs that are at least 3/16" wide.  The metal on metal fit of the key and lug should be the deciding factor without wood that can swell and contract having much effect at all. The barrel on the left shows a proper lug that maintains smooth tension on the key.

The next photo also shows a good lug although it is set up on barrel bands for a Spanish barrel.

Thin lugs are useless for keys. You want smooth metal on metal tension not wood on metal.

dave

I think you are missing my point, the wood HAS to be part of the fit and if there are no escutcheons its critical. Getting the lug/key fit right is the easy part.
I also pean to close or file to open the underlug if needed to make sure its holding the barrel properly. The underlug is sized to the key before I even drill holes. Its only adjusted later if needed. I despise loose keys so I make the wood fit tight. The underlug only need hold the barrel in the barrel channel. But if you make ANY of the fits too tight that is an issue as well. But the wood fit is the hard part. I have a Don King FS Hawken that is 40 years old and I have used it a lot over the 30 odd years I have owned it. Wood fit of the keys is still perfect. Never did ask Don how he did it so far as I remember... Too late now... But they go in smooth but just tight enough.

Dan