Another patch question

[hortonstn]

In the ever ending search for the perfect patching material I went to jo Ann's and bought some
40 pocket drill it only measured .013-.015 when I held it up to the sky I could see light coming thru the weave.  Two questions does 40 pocket drill come in different weights .
This can't be good if I can see thru the weave correct ?
I'm trying to fill up the round grooves (what a pain) in a .50 rice and a 54 colerain
Thanks

[smylee grouch]

T.o me on paper that sounds like you would get some scorching/blow by but try it to see for sure. I had bought some linen that measured around 20+ thousands once and although it was tough it was just too open weave to work as a patch material.

[WadePatton]

My 54 Colerain takes a heavy denim patch and a .530 ball. I tried to put 535's down it, but wouldn't work with any denim I had. Patches are reshootable until frayed out after a few shots.

[hanshi]

You really need thicker patch material in order to fill the deep, radius grooves in these barrels.  I use dropcloth canvas which runs about .023" -.024".  I have two and they are both Rice barrels with .016" deep grooves.  Thinner material can work but you wouldn't get much or any compression in the grooves.

[MuskratMike]

Hanshi: I to use and like Rice swamped barrels with radius cut rifling. On my .54 using .530 round balls and .015 patching I have to work to get the ball started. Any thicker patch or larger ball and it would take a mallet to start the ball. The fired patches just need just a light oiling and are ready to reuse. How do you get a ball started and rammed using that thick of a patch?

[Daryl]

The first requirement, MuskratMike, is a radiused crown.

The machined angles commonly produced on commercially made barrels, merely bunch up the lead, whereas the radiused crown allows the patch and ball to conform
to the bore.

[MuskratMike]

Daryl: thank you that does make sense but when my builder completed my rifle/pistol matched set they came with the barrels "properly" crowned. I guess it shouldn't matter as long as I can routinely win matches, have used patches that look textbook perfect, and I get the velocity I am looking for whether the patch ball/ball diameter I use is theoretically tight or not.
Goes back to the old adage of "we are not building nuclear reactors, we're just trying to hit the 10 ring".

[Marcruger]

To the OP, I agree, if you can see sunlight through the weave, it is no good to me.  I also pick up my fired patches, and do the same.  If I can see sunlight, it is not woven tightly enough.  I look for the equivalent of dense canvas, 100% cotton. 

I have smoothed the crown of my barrels as Daryl suggested, and fully subscribe to his wet-lube method for all but hunting (use mink oil there).  I can always learn something new, and I am thankful Daryl has taken the time and effort to teach me. 

I hope this helps.   God Bless,   Marc

[MuskratMike]

I totally agree. It is people like Daryl and several others that keep me coming back daily to improve my knowledge of these great rifles.

[Daryl]

Thanks guys for the mention. I know there are fellows who want nothing more than to load and shoot the way their ancestors did.
There are others who want improved accuracy & ease of shooting "all day long"  which is why we continually present our methods.
There are quite a few guys here at ALR who are now enjoying shooting more, for not having to swab their bores while shooting. For
those who want to 'do it' the way their ancestors loaded, well, that's just fine, but saying they do it that way because loading tighter
is too difficult, well, we've found methods to eliminate that problem & that is why I and others here now, mention the way we load with-
out having to wipe of swab our bores.

[hanshi]

What Daryl said.

[Clark Badgett]

What about us folks that have radiused the crown and still can't get a tight ball/patch combo to even start? So far the most accurate combo I've found is .530 ball and .010 patch, and that is in 2 different rifles. one a GM square groove .54 Hawken style and this .54 Kibler colonai with the Rice radius groove. I really would love to be able to run thicker patches since I got plenty of old denim and some nice light linen canvas scraps hanging around.

[Frank]

Try a .526 ball.

[Daryl]

Sorry Clark, I do not understand/comprehend why you are having trouble.
Frank's suggestion of a smaller ball is a good one. Other than that, I can only
suggest the balls you are using are not dead soft, ie: pure lead, Pb, 98% or
even more pure.
Hard balls (lead/tin/antimony alloys) will cause difficult loading as the lead will
not 'move' and conform ie: "draw" into the bore along with the patch.

[Clark Badgett]

Daryl, my lead for muzzleloaders is certified 99% pure. I actually bought it for this purpose. My mystery alloy lead is used for other types. I even have separate pots for each.

Frank, I have certainly given the .526 ball a thought or two.

[Daryl]

Sry - I do not understand why or how you could be having a problem with thicker than .010" patches.
The thicker patches do require a short starter, as noted. The small peg of the starter is placed on the ball, then
the side of the starter knob is smacked with the palm. That puts the ball and patch into the bore 1/4" or so.
All of the starters below have a short peg for 'starting' the patched ball.
Some guys simply smack the ball with the "top" of the starter knob, holding the shaft in the hand and using a pounding motion.
I got away from this method, going to the short stud system, as when smacking the ball with the top of the starter, the ball rarely started squarely.
When using the short peg, this happens pretty much automatically.

[Clark Badgett]

Daryl, .015 patches work as well, but not anything over that. I use a starter very similar to yours only store bought. I would need a mallet to start the .018 patches. Of the .010 and ,015 patches, the thinner are giving us the more consistent results on target. I am probably going to go in and try the steelwool and oil polishing trick as well as radius the crown just a touch more. I love Rice barrels but I sure wish they would not put the 45 degree chamfer on them, which is a good deal of rounding to put on them. Maybe next one I order I'll ask if they can leave that part off.

[hanshi]

Just one more comment to chew on; but I have two Rice radius groove barrels, a .32 and a .50.  The .32 easily takes a .311" ball and .024" patch while the .50 takes a .490" ball and the same .024" patch.  Polishing the crown makes a real difference, other than that I'm at a loss as to what suggestion to make.  I seat prb in both with the wood ramrod.

[Daryl]

Left to right, the starters are: 14 and 20 bore with a piece of ash baseball bat end, then antler ended, starter for the .40 to .50's, then the .58 starter, then the .32 & .36 starter.
The .58 starter's knob is the rosette end (base) of a moose antler. It is very hard and heavy.

[hortonstn]

Thanks guys I need to explain what I'm trying to do. Every Sunday I attend a 60 yd bench match
I have for the last 25 years we have a great group of folks that flat know how to shoot
I've used heavy guns 1-1/2 Douglas and the like these guys are very hard to beat so far I've converted 3 guys to flintlocks and we have had some good days
I am confident we can win IF I can get this load perfected
Thanks for all your knowledge and patience
Paul

[heinz]

If you are shooting bench, go ahead and use a mallet on the starter to start the bullet in.  The bench rest shooters I knew would not shy from a hard to start load on the way to accuracy.

[smallpatch]

Clark, I gotta agree with Dary.  Every Rice barrel I've used, (at least 20), has taken a .005" undersized ball, and a .020" patch easily.
Lube?  A light rap with a short starter, and the wood rod under the barrel, are all it takes

First seven shots out of a brand new barrel using that combo.

[Mike_StL]

Your stub on the short starter should have a concave indentation the diameter of the ball to minimize damage to the curve of the ball.  The longer leg and seating should have the concave radius as well. 

My cotton drill measures 0.017 to 0.018 lightly compressed.  The weave is tight.  I wash the drill in hot water and dry in the dryer.  This seems to wash out the sizing and fill the weave. 

[Daryl]

Your stub on the short starter should have a concave indentation the diameter of the ball to minimize damage to the curve of the ball.  The longer leg and seating should have the concave radius as well. 

My cotton drill measures 0.017 to 0.018 lightly compressed.  The weave is tight.  I wash the drill in hot water and dry in the dryer.  This seems to wash out the sizing and fill the weave.

Yes, of course, the stud, end of the shorter shaft AND the ram rod all have cupped ends to eliminate any damage to the ball.
I also wash new material - twice - 1st time with soap, then again without soap/detergent, then dry in the dryer.

[smylee grouch]

What I don,t understand about Clark,s problem is that if he uses a 15/1000 patch he is not really filling the groves of the 16./1000 deep cuts much less the additional windage between ball and land. Maybe I,m missing something here but to me it should load easy if those numbers are correct.