Author Topic: This finish  (Read 2308 times)

Willbarq

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This finish
« on: November 14, 2019, 03:49:27 AM »
I do believe I found this picture here on the website, if not excuse me to the owner. I have a question, do we think this is an original finish or redone at some point (like when it was converted to caplock)?

I'd love to hear some opinions. I'm thinking of going in this direction of color with my build .


Opinions please?

Offline Stophel

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Re: This finish
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2019, 04:41:21 AM »
I would dare to say probably essentially original finish.

Looks similar to what I get with aqua fortis on sugar maple, neutralizing with lye, and finishing with amber/red boiled linseed oil.  Though I don't get quite that red.  I wonder if a transparent red pigment was used.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 04:52:14 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Online rich pierce

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Re: This finish
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2019, 04:51:12 AM »
Beautiful original JP Beck. Most I’ve seen are less red than that.  And it’s hard to imagine any finish lasting 240 years untouched.  Based on the beautiful condition of the rest of the rifle I am inclined to think the finish was simply maintained really well.
Andover, Vermont

Offline hanshi

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Re: This finish
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2019, 09:54:32 PM »
It is, at any rate, a premier example of the gun maker's art.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
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Offline EC121

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Re: This finish
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2019, 10:11:58 PM »
That dark color really shows off the carving instead of t he wood.
Brice Stultz

Offline gusd

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Re: This finish
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2019, 11:55:28 PM »
I did a Beck based  on this rifle last year. I didn't get it that red though.(chicken)
I had it at CLA Show. Not an easy build for me! :-\
Gus

Offline Pete G.

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Re: This finish
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2019, 12:31:19 AM »
I like the colour and patina, but it looks too good to be 200+ years old.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: This finish
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2019, 12:56:48 AM »
I think it is quite possibly the original finish, but it has seen a LOT of Renaissance Wax.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: This finish
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2019, 01:00:03 AM »
Do the experts think it’s madder root varnish?  It resembles the results I got using it and an original Lehigh that I’ve looked at.  The wood appears to be a beautiful piece that’s been somewhat covered up by a colored varnish. 

Offline Rich

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Re: This finish
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2019, 09:12:58 AM »
It looks to me like a Madder Lake varnish. It looks like some of the incised carving lines are filled with finish in places. That indicates to me that the red finish is on top of the wood.

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: This finish
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2019, 06:57:59 PM »
Hey Folks - I've handled several original Beck rifles (though not this piece, I'd love to someday!), and many have had a very red toned varnish finish.  This one is the most red of the bunch, that could be something to do with the lighting as well.  I believe the general red tone is the result of surface varnish (as opposed to a simple oil finish without resin in it), which has been exposed to two centuries of UV light and oxidation.  It's not just Beck rifles, but many originals from the region have a lovely red hue that is difficult to replicate today without the addition of dye or pigments in the finish.  Staining the stock alone to get the color just doesn't cut it.  Some stocks with red tones are also quite black in places that have had very little wear or handling, similar coloration to some antique furniture as well. 

To get results close to this, I've stained the stock an amber color first, then applied layer upon layer of tinted finish.  A colleague showed me a copy of a Beck rifle that someone built in the 1980s if I recall correctly - he said when it was first made it was thought by many collectors to be an original, finish and all.  In the 30+ years that have passed, that aged finish has aged itself, and no longer looks quite as "right" as it did when new... food for thought ;)
-Eric

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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: This finish
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2019, 07:40:48 PM »
This stock looks excessively red, to the point where I think the lighting and the photos are affecting the end result.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it sure looks seriously red and I've not seen a Beck rifle this red previously.

It's also difficult to determine here whether all of the red is in a varnish/finish, or if some is in a stain.  Given that probably 90% (at least) of all surviving guns have been refinished or otherwise fooled with, it's likewise very difficult to determine - if not impossible - if a finish is original just looking at internet photos.  Someone with the rifle 'in hand' would be in a much better position to make such a determination.

I no longer think most varnishes this red were made with madder.  In my opinion, it's not nearly light-fast enough to survive 200+ years while maintaining this degree of color, unless it's been in a closet the entire time.  Given the percussion conversion, this rifle was used.  There are methods of precipitating iron oxides that can yield colors ranging from brown through red and even a dark yellow, and the particulate size can be fine enough that they are essentially transparent.  They are also about as light-fast as one can get.  Anyone can get some of this themselves simply by super-saturating an aquafortis solution while making it.  The leftover 'sludge' can be used in this manner once dehydrated, and it is of finer particle size than anything you can grind.  Bill Knight and I discussed this years ago and he can offer information on the technical side of it.

If you don't want to make it, Kremer sells it - they list them as "translucent iron oxide" pigments in various colors.  One or two European art supply companies also supply it in tubes already mixed with oil but it's best to buy the dry pigments and mull them into oil or oil varnishes more suited for gunstocking than artist oils.  With the right proportions of pigment to carrier, you can get a red varnish this red with a single coat over a stained stock (aquafortis stain) or about two coats over a stock sealed with various sealers that will create an amber undertone.  It will be as transparent as madder without any of the fugitive drawbacks.
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Willbarq

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Re: This finish
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2019, 08:49:10 AM »
I do believe I found this picture here on the website, if not excuse me to the owner. I have a question, do we think this is an original finish or redone at some point (like when it was converted to caplock)?

I'd love to hear some opinions. I'm thinking of going in this direction of color with my build .


Opinions please?

In looking at this rifle (pics) , this rifle is more of a showpiece than a shooter. Therefore it may explain the good condition? It was always "special" so it was preserved. Hanging out in closets for two hundred years does a body good....?  Thanks for all the replies on the topic.

Offline smart dog

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Re: This finish
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2019, 04:28:24 PM »
Hi,
If it wasn't used, why the percussion conversion?

dave
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Offline Daryl

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Re: This finish
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2019, 09:55:52 PM »
And the rot on the barrel's rear exposed surface caused by oxidation from fouling.
Daryl

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Offline Stophel

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Re: This finish
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2019, 02:09:21 AM »
Just because a gun was converted to per-cussed, doesn't mean it was rode hard and put up wet every day for 75 years prior to that (or after).
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."