Author Topic: South West Virginia stlye rifle???  (Read 16696 times)

eagle24

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South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« on: July 16, 2009, 11:27:34 PM »
This may be fun to decipher because I really don't know a lot about what I am asking.  I'm almost done with my first rifle and have started thinking about what I want to build next.  I'll post pics of my first (southern rifle) when I get her done.  I would like to find some information on what I will refer to as maybe a Late South West Virginia Rifle.  Maybe somewhat of a cross between a southern mountain (or Tennessee) and a Virginia rifle.  Iron furniture, English Lock, with no carving is what I had in mind, but with a wider stock at the butt and less crescent in the buttplate and maybe an iron patch box.  Something very similar to the rifle pictured above in the ALR logo box is what I have in mind.  What style would a rifle like this be?  I wanted to get some info to help in deciding on the components and architecture so that I'm building a rifle that has some semblance to an original (even if there were not many of them found).  If you can make any sense out of this and offer any info or advice I would really appreciate it. 

Offline tallbear

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2009, 11:41:59 PM »
This is an Iron Mounted Southwest Virginia rifle I did a couple  of years ago.It is based on an original that Wallace Gusler featured in the March 2006 Muzzle Blasts.Kinda covers what you looking for I think.If you don't have that issue of Muzzle Blasts e'mail me at jmyii@hotmail .com and I'll get you a copy.













Mitch
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 08:09:12 AM by Ky-Flinter »

eagle24

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 12:13:00 AM »
Thanks for posting your fine rifle Mitch.  Very Nice!  I will look and see if I have that issue of MB.  That's about the time I joined the NMLRA so I am not sure.  Your rifle is close to what I have in mind.  I was imagining a butt stock between a Tennessee and the butt stock on your rifle.  Not quite as wide as yours but wider than a Tennessee and with a slight amount of crescent (very slight compared to a Tennessee).  From the wrist forward your rifle is what I had in mind.  I know I have seen some rifles like I'm imagining.  I just can't find them or find any info right now.

Offline G-Man

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 12:31:28 AM »
For an iron mounted southwest Virginia gun, there is a group of guns that have a lot of similar characteristics, ca: 1790-1810, from Botetourt County on south and west through Wythe County, etc,. possibly even over into Tennesee and Kentucky, that Wallace has shown in his Muzzle Blasts articles. These are the best examples that I know of to work from.  

Some features on these that I would consider in building something in this style -

 - subtle stepped wrists - somtimes you have to look really hard to see it
-some are iron mounted, some brass
 - triggerguard with a bow longer than the grip rail, and the spur pointed down, and the grip rail is usually slightly curved.
-English trade/import style lock
-patchboxes with simple geometric shapes, somtimes very angular shapes, sometimes with a captured lid, sometimes just a touch of accent engraving - very simple and folky borders, etc, but often plain and unengraved.
-usually no carving other than toeline, cheekpiece and forestock moldings but sometimes do have some incised carving, like the MESDA gun
-the comb is sometimes very gently radiused - some people call this a "soft" comb rather than a curved comb.
-set triggers, rear trigger sometimes slanted but not always
-toe plates that do not (or have sections that do not) extend the full width of the toe of the stock.
-barrels are often key fastened
-full two-screw one piece sideplates
-the iron mounted ones tha I am aware of usually do not have any silver inlays, but the brass mounted ones somtimes do
-buttplates around 1 and 3/4 inch range, give or take, with a slight curve and sometimes a pronounced heel

You will probably have to make the hardware or heavily modify available castings to get the right look.

Gary Brumfield shows some examples of some fancier brass mounted southwestern Virginia rifles on his website.

Good luck

Guy

eagle24

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2009, 06:03:42 AM »
Thanks for the good info Guy.  The closest original rifle to what I am talking about is the Jos Bogle rifle.  To me, it is sort of a cross between a Tennessee and Virginia styled rifle and has many of the features you point out in your post.  Are there other similar originals with characteristics of Tennessee and Virginia?  I was thinking about something along that line, but with more of a Virginia styled buttplate with a little less crescent but a pronounced heel as you described.

Offline rsells

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2009, 09:41:35 AM »
Look on Mel Hankla's web page www.kentuckylongrifles.com under antique rifles and Bogle rifle.  It is a pretty neat iron mounted rifle.  Ron Boron has the drawing of this rifle that could be used to copy the characteristics.
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Offline G-Man

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2009, 03:36:01 PM »
These are really my favorite style guns - the Appalachian rifles of the 1790s-1820 period.  Which is what I consider "early" as far as mountain rifles go.  I'll see if I can get you some info in a PM.  

The Bogle rifle is a great gun and as Roger pointed out you can see good photos on Mel's site. It was thought by many to have been made in Virginia,  but research by (incuding Wayne Elliot who posts on here from time to time and is one of the really knolwedgable folks out there regarding southern rifles, and Tom Patton who also posts on here) has indicated that it was likely made in Blount CountyTennessee, just west of the Smokey Mountain region.   It is early, at least pre-1811 and looks to be maybe right around 1800, give or take a few years.

And you are correct in that they mix features. Appalachian guns made in Southwestern Virginia and the eastern part of Tennessee do share a lot of common features and for the early examples, we are not sure exactly where they were made - some could have been made in either area. The guards tend to look more like they were emulating the earlier guards on brass mounted guns made over to the east and north, and had not yet evolved into the highly stylized mountain rifle shapes.  So you wonder, were the SW Virginia guns sort of picking up influences from being in between the major gunmaking areas of Virginia or North Carolina, and the deeper Appalachian areas, or were they sort of an evolutionary link between the two styles?  I don't know the answer, but it's fun to ponder.
 
There are a few Joseph Bogle rifles shown in Jerry Noble's books.  You would also probably like some of the work of the Bulls, John and Elisha, who apparently were making their style of guns a bit earlier than what we think of as the slender classic Tennessee rifle, i.e. there are a number of dated Bull guns that pre-date 1820.

Good luck

Guy
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 03:38:11 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 04:00:09 PM »
Here are links to a couple of VA flintlock rifles that are in the ALR library that might be of interest to you. One is a John Whitesides of the Abingdon VA area and the other is by an unknown maker but probably from western/south western VA area.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=5622.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4165.0

Dennis


« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 04:00:49 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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eagle24

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 04:14:01 PM »
There are a few Joseph Bogle rifles shown in Jerry Noble's books.  You would also probably like some of the work of the Bulls, John and Elisha, who apparently were making their style of guns a bit earlier than what we think of as the slender classic Tennessee rifle, i.e. there are a number of dated Bull guns that pre-date 1820.

These are my favorites also.  I have all of Jerry Nobles books and "yes", the Bull Rifles are high on my list.  I took in a lot at the CLA show last year and spent quite a bit of time talking with Wayne Elliot and Al Reider (spelling??).  They had some fine rifles that I was really interested in.  You actually sent me some pics of some southern rifles about a year ago.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 04:28:48 PM by GHall »

Offline G-Man

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2009, 04:57:30 PM »
Oh yeah - now I remember.  I could not remember if you have the Muzzle Blasts articles where Wallace shows some good photos of the stepped wrist or stepped toe group.

Al had the Bogle rifle on display at the CLA last year - so you probably got a good look at it.  I spent much of the day over by that table so we probably met.

The Bogle's sideplates look very much like the Bull style,  and are one of the things that give it more of a Tennessee feel to it, to me anyway. If it had a single, two screw sideplate, I would have guessed Virginia, but there are no hard and fast rules.

That Richard Allen (Georgia) rifle in the ALR museum is another fantastic piece with a similar feel.

Guy

eagle24

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2009, 06:28:25 PM »
Wow!  I must be brain dead.  If the Bogle rifle was at Al's table, I definitely spent a good deal of time looking at it.  I guess the Bull, Bean, and Lawing rifles got more of my attention. ???

billd

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2009, 07:32:16 PM »
I've been following this post with great interest and I just realized I don't know if you're disussing a southwestern virginia gun or a southern west virginia gun. ??
Bill

Offline G-Man

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2009, 09:07:26 PM »
Southwestern Virginia, but the region once included parts of what is now southern West Virginia.  

I think today the term is used mainly for the part of Virgnia south and west from the New River Valley, west of the Blue Ridge, all the way south to the North Carolina line, southwest to Tennessee and west to Kentucky around Cumberland Gap.  Parts of Present day I-77/I-81 pass through the heart of it.  But the types of guns we are discussing were made all the way up to the James headwaters area (Botetourt County) so I tend to include them when discussing southwestern Virginia, but that may not be correct to a native Virgnian, although I think Boteourt and Augusta Counties at one time included the whole region.

Gary Brumfield would be the man to ask - he is from there!.

Guy
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 09:08:57 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline Artificer

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2009, 12:10:33 AM »
I've been following this post with great interest and I just realized I don't know if you're disussing a southwestern virginia gun or a southern west virginia gun. ??
Bill

That can get confusing as Virginia once held claim to both and even land that is now part of Western Pennsylvania and further west. 

Offline TPH

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2009, 12:57:08 AM »
........................
 I think Boteourt and Augusta Counties at one time included the whole region.

Gary Brumfield would be the man to ask - he is from there!.

Guy



Guy, Augusta county as part of Southwest Virginia would REALLY be stretching the definition, Augusta is and always has been part of the Shenandoah Valley. Botetourt maybe, but I think your initial definition - ...the part of Virginia south and west from the New River Valley - would be more appropriate the panhandle section of the Commonwealth. We used to include Craig and Alleghany counties in Southwest but as I understand it, they are no longer included.
T.P. Hern

Offline Carper

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2009, 01:17:46 AM »
GHall :  I have lived in southern WV since my birth. My family has made rifles since the early 1800's, still do. While no expert on anything, I have seen and been in contact with lots and lots of rifle from the area you inquired about. My own family rifles changed only little in style from a couple of decades prior to the civil war until now. I cant speak about the real early rifles as I havent seen them. However I have made a little book mostly of pictures of Carper rifles ( Boutetort to Raleigh Co WV) and a few other local guns with character. Email me your address and I will be glad to send you a copy.  firecracker62@suddenlink.net       Johnny Walker

eagle24

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2009, 04:08:02 PM »
GHall :  I have lived in southern WV since my birth. My family has made rifles since the early 1800's, still do. While no expert on anything, I have seen and been in contact with lots and lots of rifle from the area you inquired about. My own family rifles changed only little in style from a couple of decades prior to the civil war until now. I cant speak about the real early rifles as I havent seen them. However I have made a little book mostly of pictures of Carper rifles ( Boutetort to Raleigh Co WV) and a few other local guns with character. Email me your address and I will be glad to send you a copy.  firecracker62@suddenlink.net       Johnny Walker

Yes, I would love to have a copy.  email on the way.  Thanks!

Offline G-Man

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2009, 05:49:03 PM »
TPH - you are right - I was not clear in my statement - Virginia gets confusing because the counties were split off over the years and some that were originally huge were reduced in size.  I didn't mean to imply that Augusta County (as it sits now) is part of Southwestern Virginia, nor really even Botetourt as it is today, but my understanding was that Botetourt in its original form was split off before the Revolution from what was then Augusta, and the region that was split off as Botetourt actually included the whole  SW Virginia area at that time and actually all the way west to the Mississippi. 

I do sometimes consider the stepped wrist iron mounted guns believed to have been made around what is present day Botetourt County and the James headwaters area as related to similar guns that were also made farther down through Wythe County, and possibly over as far as into Tennesee and Kentucky, stylistically.

Guy
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 06:13:33 PM by Guy Montfort »

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2009, 12:07:19 AM »
I think the evolution of the counties in Virginia is very ineresting--but then, as Guy said, I'm a native.

Here is a link to a web site that traces the growth of VA and the splitting off of counties from 1617 to 1995.  You can bring up a new map for every time a new county was formed by just clicking on the dates Of interest to this discussion is the period from 1765 to 1780. That is when southwest Virginia was really beginning to fill in and the counties show this pretty clearly. For later rifles just go ahead  toward the Civil War. That is when WVA and VA split.
Gary

http://www.myvirginiagenealogy.com/va_maps.htm
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hyltoto

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2009, 04:14:53 PM »
Being a native of SW Virginia, Pulaski County, I can tell you as a lad the originals I was shown were all "Honaker Rifles". With brass furniture and red coloring. Often they had been converted to percussion for use in the war of northern aggression as militia weapons. There is a book about  gunsmiths of VA that has some good black and white photos.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2009, 05:17:09 PM »
Being a native of SW Virginia, Pulaski County, I can tell you as a lad the originals I was shown were all "Honaker Rifles". With brass furniture and red coloring. Often they had been converted to percussion for use in the war of northern aggression as militia weapons. There is a book about  gunsmiths of VA that has some good black and white photos.

There are also several iron mounted Honaker rifles including a carved one in the old KRA "red book" (later reprinted with a black cover).

Here is a link to some pictures of the attributed Honaker that Colonial Williamsburg now owns. This may be the grandest one to survive and it turned uo in Blacksburg in the late 1960s. The bird finial box with the hinge lapped to the outside are classic Honaker details but they used several other designs as well, including a bold spiral flower finial.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/Honaker.htm

Gary

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Offline TPH

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2009, 06:35:11 PM »
Gary, thanks for reminding me about that rifle, it is a beauty! Can you state a time period for this rifle's manufacture?

I have always enjoyed what we in Alleghany County where I grew up called "mountain rifles", those were the rifles made in that area of Virginia and West Virginia. The best place for a kid to see them when I was growing up in the 1950s was to go with my Dad to Howard Sites's shop and look at what seemed to be an infinite number of guns hanging from the ceiling and walls of the shop along with all of those sitting in gunracks everywhere. What an experience.
T.P. Hern

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2009, 11:55:20 PM »
Gary, thanks for reminding me about that rifle, it is a beauty! Can you state a time period for this rifle's manufacture?

I have always enjoyed what we in Alleghany County where I grew up called "mountain rifles", those were the rifles made in that area of Virginia and West Virginia. The best place for a kid to see them when I was growing up in the 1950s was to go with my Dad to Howard Sites's shop and look at what seemed to be an infinite number of guns hanging from the ceiling and walls of the shop along with all of those sitting in gunracks everywhere. What an experience.

Dating those Honaker school rifles is a challenge because there is at least one relief carved example with a back action percussion lock. Those folks hung on to raised carving long after it had gone out of fashion in most areas! They also made flintlocks well into the percussion era. I guess us mountain folks are and always have been rooted in tradition. :)

Wallace Gusler and I grew up just west of Salem and were also great fans of Howard Site's shop there on Fudge St in Covington. We might have been there five years later than you and your Dad---early to mid-1960s. At the time we had no idea that he was a third or forth generation Virginia gunsmith decended from George Sites of Botetourt Co.. The great iron mounted rifle in the MESDA collection came out of one of Howard's parts barrels!

Gary

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Offline Carper

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2009, 05:17:44 AM »
The Honakers and the Carpers were in direct competition from about 1850 to early 1920's in present day Raleigh County, WV.   I'll bet that I have seen 50 Honaker rifles( owned 3 or 4) None of the real early stuff. Not more than a half dozen full stocks. A Honaker from Ohio came down here about 6 years ago and bought all the old guns that he could find. The trunk of a mercedes full of hog rifles!  Let me tell you abut the coolest Honaker that I ever saw.  It was half stock curly maple about 30 cal with at least a one inch maybe 1 1/8  across the flats  barrel. When you held it, it felt like the wrist would just snap, but the great part was  all the way down the top flat was engraved a rattlesnake. About 38 inches long. The Honaker's were better engravers than my folks but the Carpers would use 3 metals in an enlay( copper, brass, coin silver) and that was different. I have a silver mounted Carper squirrel rifle with a brass capbox that has  thirteen little copper stars around the lid inlaid into the brass. Not something you see everyday.   Johnny Walker

Offline rsells

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Re: South West Virginia stlye rifle???
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2009, 06:14:00 AM »
Mark Elliott's rifle is on Art Risers blog page today.  It is like you were talking about.
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