Patent Breech with Integral Drum vs Regular Drum & Nipple

[SR James]

I'm getting ready to build a .45 halfstock, 7/8"x36" percussion rifle to be used primarily as an offhand target gun. The style of the rifle I'm building would normally use a drum and nipple, but while perusing the available parts, I saw the patent breech shown below:



I have rifles with drum & nipple, and patent breech, both percussion and flint, and have had good results with all. But it got me to thinking...Can anyone think of any pros or cons to the above patent "drum" breech vs a conventional drum and nipple for an offhand target rifle (other than cost)? My question is not so much about safety as it is about the performance of a patent breech in a match rifle, vs a standard drum. Any thoughts along those lines, like ignition, fouling problems, etc?

[northmn]

The standard drum fits into a barrel with no "chamber" while a patent drums gives on a step down that has to be cleaned.  For continuous shooting some patnet breeches can foul out such that a thorough cleaning is needed as compared to a regular system which can be cleaned out with a pipe cleaner.  When properly installed I have found the standard drum to be safe and work well.  One has to be careful not to let them stick out too much on theinside or they catch patches and make it hard to pull the rod back out.  I also always soldered them into place so that they would stay in place for hammer alignment.  Were I to say advantages over the patent breech shown.  Easier fitting for hammer alignment when building, maybe.  Really it is one of style vs function and I cannot really say that a drum and nipple system has any performance advantages (or real disadvantages) over a patent breech.  Had I not been so long winded I could have answered your thread "there are no real differences"

[ottawa]

i have both on my rifles and see no real differance in shooting the one pat breech you have pic there seems a bit long at the nipple thinging conpared to the one i have or a drum set up  mite just be the pic . the only disavantige mit be in removing the breech you have to be exstra carfull not to buggure up the nipple area when taking off or puting on 'when fitting

[Daryl]

When you clean by removing the barel from the stock, sticking the breech-end in a pail or bucket of water and flushing water out of and into the barrel, cleaning a patent breech is a breeze. If you want to wipe it out only without removing the barrel from the stock, you'll never get the britch clean.(enough for me). Same goes for drums - need the flushing water to flush out the fouling.  Wiping it out through a hole in the side of the breech or drum doesn't cut it for me.

[max]

I just finished building a .40 cal half-stocked Vincent with a 7/8" barrel and was faced with the same problem. I opted for  a 1/2" drum to remain true to  the original. Colour me paranoid, but if I was building a gun strictly for target work I'd opt for the patent breech you're considering because of the strength it offers. The wall thickness of a 7/8"  barrel isn't all that great in a .45 cal. and if the drum isn't an intimate fit with the cutout in the lockplate, the constant hammering could cause the unsuported drum to crack at the point it's shoulder touches the barrel. In my humble opinion, the use of an even smaller drum increases the risk as the wall thickness of the threaded portion of the drum isn't much better than a gas line in a car.
As far as cleaning, I use a flush kit( that I think I bought from Track) that has a small hose that I run into a pail of warm soapy water and it does a fine job of cleaning the drum. A little Teflon tape on the adapter prevents leakage so it's a relatively simple procedure. Anyway that's my two cents.

[B.Habermehl]

The Pete allen breech you picture is the only one I would use In a gun of mine. A drum threaded into the side of the barrel is not nearly as  strong a arrangement as the Allen breech you picture. I really dread drums breaking off flush with the side of the barrel and shooting the guy next to you at a line shoot. Not the way to make friends.  BJH

[northmn]

I have used drums and seen them used for years.  The ones that gave the drum system a bad name were the 1/4 X 28 for those wishing a convertable rifle from percussion to flint.  When used with a reasonable thread, even the 5/16 X 24, they have been safe.  On larger barrels the 3/8 is better.  You can get a good fit of lock to drum to avoid problems also.  Another problem was with stripping threads to line up the nipple to the hammer.  One reason I went to soldering the drums in place so that overtightening is not needed.  I saw a nipple blown out of a drum when I was at a shoot.  Thats about as safe as you get. 
Daryl, when I mentioned using the pipe cleaner I meant it as a range expedient for continued shooting, not for final cleaning.  Some percussion rifles can foul out pretty bad if shot a lot without cleaning.

DP

[T*O*F]

The same rules apply for drums as stated in the ongoing breechplug length thread.  You need a minimum of 3 complete threads for max strength.  That's 5 threads total, 3 complete and 2 partial.  Barrel wall thickness will determine what size plug to use to achieve the above.  Threads must be mated to each other and not loose or wobbly.

[Pete Allan]

For those of you not familiar with our drum and nipple breeches we drill the powder channel at an angle that in many cases comes out about 1/8" inboard of the nipple. I have refitted some of my old home made perc. rifles with our breeches and I find I don't have to tap the side of the rifle to make sure the powder ends up close to the nipple. The reason for the added height around the nipple threads is so a nipple with "long" threads won't almost close off the powder channel.
Thanks for all the comments.

[Dphariss]

This is a "Vincent" built with a  1" Hawken hooked breech. This eliminates a host of evils.
Looks OK too I think.
I detest drum and nipples.
They are and always were the worst possible way to make a percussion gun. But its cheap and all the parts can be easily made with a minimum of tools. I never stand on the lock side of one when its being fired. Something I learned when a teenager.
The one piece breech shown is a much better alternative if you just have to have the look.
But a good patent breech with a fence to keep cap fragments out of your face is the best solution.
The rifle also has a lollypop tang and a globe front for use where the rules allow. I finally caught up with it when I had my camera along.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Very neat rifle Dan.  The patent breech looks much better to my eye in every case.  I built a longrifle in the last century on a .45 cal 13/16" barrel, and it blew out.  Pretty embarrassing to say the least...at least no one was injured - just my pride.  But it taught me a valuable lesson.  Don't build rifles with parts selected by the client, when you better judgement says something ain't right here.

[Dphariss]

The wider tang allowed me to use a 1/4 x80 thread for the lollipop tang so it provides fine adjustments.
It has a 1", 45 cal x 42" long GM barrel.
It was built as a dedicated match rifle.

Dan

[SR James]

Dan, what is the rear barrel sight on that rifle?

[Dphariss]

Dan, what is the rear barrel sight on that rifle?

I think its a TOW #  RS-FG-16T looks too tall for the regular height one. Can't recall off hand. But being for a match rifle I would have used taller sights.
Dan