Flyer

[Gary W.E.]

I have a 32 cal Crocket rifle and I have a problem I can’t figure out. It can be a tack driver but somewhere between the 5th and 10th shot I have a flyer that can be up to a foot off point of aim. Then it goes back to shooting straight. I have tried different sized bullets, different patch material, and swabbing the barrel between shots. Has anyone else had a problem like this and can you give me any pointers?  It would be appreciated

[snapper]

Gary

I have a rifle in .54 cal with a fast twist barrel.   It was to be my "perfect hunting rifle".  One of the nicest pieces of walnut you would want, Pete Allen box lock, DeHaas barrel.    This rifle did the same thing.   Shoot great, then all of a sudden it would throw one like crazy.   Never could figure it out.  I still have the rifle, one of my first builds.   Just sits in the gun safe wishing it could see the light of day.

Fleener

[smylee grouch]

Have you tried weighing the round balls just in case there are none with voids?

[Mike from OK]

Have you tried weighing the round balls just in case there are none with voids?

Agreed.

Might not be the cause of the flyer but it's another variable to check.

Mike

[Daryl]

Flyers, yes - IT happens, thus the 7 shots in this group at 60 yards. Unexplained- all seemed perfect & identical holds.

[Bob Roller]

Maybe a void in the ball or possibly a change in light.

Bob Roller

[Gary W.E.]

I have not tried to weigh the balls, but I have tried different balls including Hornady and they will all do the same thing. I am almost ready to put a new barrel on my gun. I am starting to believe something is wrong with my groves but if that is the case, why doesn't it shoot wild each shot? It don"t make since to me

[snapper]

Have you tried to change your patching?   Also tried to put a wool or card wad under the patched ball?

I was thinking about this last night.  I mentioned my bullet gun in .54 that would throw one wildly.  I was a new conical shooter with that rifle,and never tried to put a card or wad under the bullet.   That might take care of my problem as well.

Fleener

[WadePatton]

A void near the surface of the ball seems to be the best explanation in my calculations.  Off-center being the key.

The faster the twist the worse the flyer would be in that case.

A problem with patch, powder, prime, or bbl or sighting (light) would be represented in more shots.

Has anyone replicated the problem with weighed balls?   Hey it might be interesting to shoot a few groups with balls that weigh light, just to see what sort of group they might produce- or will they make a scatterment of fliers?

[Roger B]

You may be blowing a random patch ,so perhaps going up a bit in thickness might help. You might also try cleaning between each shot. Just a moist cleaning patch. Some guns do strange things when dirty. Fouling can raise pressures and increase ball velocity. Also check the crown. If its sharp, you might be cutting a patch on loading occasionally. Polishing with your thumb and fine sandpaper is sometimes useful. I wouldn't go to a new barrel. A barrel that shoots that well has nothing wrong with it beyond a possible sharp crown. It almost has to be a load problem that is random & occasional.
Roger B.

[kudu]

Im "Almost" sure its a blown Patch or weak patch. Especially if you have weighed your balls.

Ive seen this before mostly in the larger calibers (50 and up).

You might consider teflon Patching I know not period correct and costly- not much more though.

Their is a reason why bench rest shooters use teflon patches.

I have a small bench gun 50 cal its only got a 1 1/8" barrel but adjustable sights I learned to use it (teflon) when it counts. I.E. matches.

[hanshi]

It sounds like a patch problem to me as well.  Smooth the crown and see what happens.  Definitely try a stronger/thicker patch.  Also, what lube are you using? 

[WadePatton]

A definitive test to determine if the patch is intermittently failing, simply set up  on a calm day with a clear/ed area for finding spent patches. Find every single patch whilst shooting a group. Shoot until an un-called flier happens, and then find that patch.

Then you'll know what needs fixing.

[WKevinD]

If I only get one in a twenty shot string I'm pretty happy.

Kevin

[Gary W.E.]

A good friend of mine gave me a lead and I tried it today. It looks promising but I have have got my hopes up to many times with this rifle. When it shoots it is dead on! I want to shoot it for a week or two to be sure and will post the results. Thanks for the help and I will continue to monitor this post so please don't stop with the suggestions.

[alacran]

Over the years I have found that shooters want to find that their barrel is the source for their accuracy problems.
Most of the times I find that their barrels are always never the problem.
 Shooting a lightweight rifle like the Crocket off the bench requires a very good bench setup as well a sound bench techniques. The Traditions Crocket's sight radius is not very long. Requires a lot of discipline to not get an occasional flyer. That rifle is never going to be a bench gun. It is a squirrel gun.
Things you might be doing to get that errant shot. Miss aligning your sight picture, changing your cheek hold, anticipating the shot, lifting your head, I could go on.

[MuskratMike]

Thank you Alacran! The post I was about to send was the same as yours only yours was better written. The "Muskrat" says if you are reading this go up one post for excellent advise.

[Daryl]

A definitive test to determine if the patch is intermittently failing, simply set up  on a calm day with a clear/ed area for finding spent patches. Find every single patch whilst shooting a group. Shoot until an un-called flier happens, and then find that patch.

Then you'll know what needs fixing.

Exactly- examined every patch and still have no idea why I had those 2 flyers. Totally unexplained to be THAT far out, at only 60yards, yet the next 2 going right back into the group.

[hanshi]

Not to change the subject but the Crockett is usually capable of astonishing accuracy. 
This is just one good target with the Crockett.  Even with a major flyer it measures only just over an inch.  The other 4 shots made one hole and the flyer was my fault and was called.  In my experience this little rifle is capable of 1" 5 shot groups at 50 yards.  The advice above on the difficulties of benching a tiny, lightweight rifle is spot on.  Let us know how it goes.

[WadePatton]

A definitive test to determine if the patch is intermittently failing, simply set up  on a calm day with a clear/ed area for finding spent patches. Find every single patch whilst shooting a group. Shoot until an un-called flier happens, and then find that patch.

Then you'll know what needs fixing.

Exactly- examined every patch and still have no idea why I had those 2 flyers. Totally unexplained to be THAT far out, at only 60yards, yet the next 2 going right back into the group.

humph.  Wonder if you kept shooting the same target if the flyers would cluster or group rather than being randomly dispersed. This might provide a clue.  Maybe something could be gleaned from punching multiple targets with each shot.  Trajectory and dispersion mapping eh?

[Gary W.E.]

The flyers I am talking about can be 1 foot or better from the point of aim. I am not talking an 1" or 2. It immediately goes back to grouping. In my last trip to the range I fired 15 rounds and no problems after my friends suggestion. I have gotten my hopes up before on this gun and was let down. I want to fire 30 more rounds before I get my hopes up. I have never had this problem before on any of my rifles.

[Marcruger]

"A definitive test to determine if the patch is intermittently failing, simply set up  on a calm day with a clear/ed area for finding spent patches. Find every single patch whilst shooting a group. Shoot until an un-called flier happens, and then find that patch. Then you'll know what needs fixing. "

This above.   If something like a flyer happens, I would be hunting each and every patch with a vengeance.  The target is telling you something is wrong, the patch can tell you WHAT is wrong.  It could be as simple as an off-center pre-cut patch.  The way that barrel clusters shots, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that flyers are not the barrel's fault.  Something in your materials or loading. 

Shoot each shot, and pick up each patch.  When a flyer happens, locate the patch and read it.  It should tell you something.  If not, then it could be your balls. 

Hold each patch up to the sunlight after shooting.  Can you see light through any part of the patch?  If so, you need denser, stronger canvas.  I get no joy from looser woven cloth. 

A blown patch allows for gasses to blow by, thereby creating wide variations in velocity.  The blown patch release from the muzzle and/or velocity variations will cause shots to leave any group. 

I hope this helps.   God Bless,   Marc

[Gary W.E.]

I shot 30 rounds today and that being said, I have shot a total of 45 rounds out of this rifle without any problems. A fellow most of you know, but I will not put his name on the internet, told me after he looked at my rifle that my patch material was too thick. I was skeptical over this because my ball was so easy to go down the barrel. To make a long story short, I changed from a thickness of .022 Duck Cloth to .018 Pocket Drill and the ball seemed to just about fall in the barrel. NO FLYERS!

[okawbow]

I had the same thing with a chunk gun. It would put 5 shots in the same hole at 60 yards, and then throw one 3” to the left. I just couldn’t get through a 10 shot match without a flier that was clear off the scoring ring. I finally tried shooting where I could pick up all my patches as I shot. I found that when I had a flier, the patch was cut on one side. I recrowned  and polished the muzzle and the fliers went away.

[Mike from OK]

What causes flyers?

This is from the 24th. I took the new Bedford out for its first outing and began working on a load. I was in an empty pasture shooting East to West... A light intermittent breeze was out of the North (from my right). Distance was 50 paces, so roughly 50 yards.

The following pictures are of shot string #4... 5 shots... The load is 55 gr of Goex 3f, .445 Hornady ball, .018 pillow ticking wetted with saliva and cut at the muzzle.



Here is how the 5 shots in string #4 came out for me... My point of aim for string #4 is the red dot at the top of the picture. Notice how 4C and 4E are way off from 4A, 4B, and 4D...



As I said I was shooting in an empty pasture and the grass had started to come back... So I had a hard time finding my patches. In fact, I didn't recover them until after I got done, so I don't have the patches matched with each shot in sequence... And I was only able to find 4 of the 5...

But look closely at the patch on the far right... See the hole? Could that be one of my "flyers" ( 4C or 4E ) And it's smaller in diameter than the other 3 patches...




What did I learn?

• My eyes aren't what they used to be.

• I need a good steady bench to shoot from

• I need a spotter to watch where my patches land

• I need to recover each patch as I fire each shot so I can label each patch with its matching shot designation

• It looks like my front sight may need a few licks with a file as every shot string was below my point of aim, but I will wait until my groups tighten up before I adjust the sights at all

Mike