Author Topic: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?  (Read 14427 times)

Offline E.vonAschwege

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White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« on: July 17, 2009, 09:28:29 PM »
Hey folks,
   I typically drill a hole directly in the barrel and cone it from the inside using a little bit that Stophel shared.  This time I've got a WL liner for my 16g, but before I drill away I had a question about whether the liner should shoulder up on the inside?  I have a diagram showing what I mean.  I installed a liner on my first gun years ago and did it without a shoulder, but I feel like a shoulder would make cleaning easier and make a better installation.  What are your thoughts, how do you usually install them?  Thanks!
-Eric

Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Online Joe Stein

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2009, 09:55:28 PM »
Eric,
I don't know what most do, but I like the shoulder.  It's also what Dan Pharris shows in his liner tutorial: 
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=5089.0
-Joe

Offline jerrywh

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 10:43:30 PM »
How are you goint to thread the hole up to the shoulder?
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 10:55:56 PM »
I've only installed one WL liner....  in a .50 cal Rice B weight barrel.  If my memory serves, the liner went all the way thru to the bore and I dressed it off flush.

Guess it depends on the wall thickness of your barrel.

-Ron
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Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2009, 12:03:38 AM »
 Eric, unless you have a unusually heavy walled barrel the liner will enter the bore and will need to be dressed a bit from the inside.  BJH
BJH

Offline Swampwalker

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2009, 12:10:43 AM »
Seating against a shoulder is probably a somewhat stronger set up, but often difficult do to lack of material.  The only time I've heard of vents blowing out was when the threads were stripped due to repeated removals.  The white lightenings are not designed to be routinely removed , so this is not likely a concern.  I usually install all the way through, and then dress off the interior using a round file (carefully).

Offline David Rase

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2009, 03:09:10 AM »
I've never shouldered a touch hole liner.  Since I normally do things the hardest way possible I am surprised that I did not think of a shoulder.  ;D
DMR

Offline davec2

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2009, 03:35:52 AM »
I like Jerry's question.  How would you thread all the way to the shoulder?  In real life, you would need to remove the last thread or so from the end of the liner (and / or shorten the liner as well to get a shoulder) both of which will reduce the number of engaged threads and weaken the installation.  You also have to bottom out on two separate surfaces (shoulder and outer chamfer) simultaneously - almost always a bad design practice.  I drill and tap through. Dan Pharris is using a 10-32 threaded liner, which gives him a longer L over D (length over diameter) to play with and a smaller cross sectional area for the chamber pressure to act on, so it doesn't matter if he's missing a thread or two at the bottom of the hole.  Even a bottoming tap won't cut threads to a tight shoulder.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 03:48:06 AM by davec2 »
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2009, 03:44:00 AM »
As Roger would say, "holy canoly", have you guys gone berserk.   Yep, Eric, I think you should do it that way.  As Jerry
said, how you going to get threads all the way down to the bottom, right up to the shoulder.   Now, if you can't do that,
you can put the liner in the lathe and take of a few of the forward threads off the liner so that it will shoulder properly'
Now, don't forget to get it to the right length so that it will seat real well in the countersunk outer edge......after you've
done this, you can then cut if off and file it down smooth with the barrel, and , guess what....you're done.   While you're
doing that, I think I'll go and polish my lock............Don

Offline davec2

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2009, 03:49:47 AM »
Don, I think you and I were typing at the same time......and I bet you can polish a lock quicker than putting in a liner like that.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2009, 04:46:18 AM »
Hey guys,
  Thanks for the excellent responses!  I remembered the shoulder from Dan's tutorial, and was thinking about it in terms of shouldering on a breech plug too.  I ended up drilling through, dishing the breech face slightly, and polishing it all to a mirror shine.  It scared me to drill such a large hole in the side of the barrel when I'm used to direct drilling and internal coning! 
   I agree, it would take a while to shoulder it, and you lose the last thread.  I'd rather spend that time polishing and case hardening the lock... AH so much left to do before Dixon's!!!  Can't wait!
-Eric
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline smart dog

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2009, 06:52:46 PM »
Hi Eric,
I would not waste another brain cell worrying about a shoulder.  You won't have any trouble cleaning the barrel with some threads showing.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Dphariss

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2009, 06:06:39 AM »
Hi Eric,
I would not waste another brain cell worrying about a shoulder.  You won't have any trouble cleaning the barrel with some threads showing.

dave

Depends.
The shoulder can significantly reduce pressure exerted on the liner.
If not shouldered there will be powder fouling in the threads unless a pipe thread is used.
The WL has such thin walls there is not much change in diameter with a shoulder but it does eliminate fouling intrusion. BP fouling trapped in this manner *in my experience* does not promote rust. BUT I have had the liner threads leak gas so there should be a seal at one end of the threads or the other. I also use low tolerance taps for the threading the holes.
The WL I have in the Nock breech is not shouldered.

Dan
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Offline smart dog

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 06:34:08 PM »
Hi Dan,

"If not shouldered there will be powder fouling in the threads unless a pipe thread is used."

I installed  WL liner in my Ferguson rifle.  The breech wall is thicker than the liner so a thread or two shows.  With the screw breech removed, I can easily peak at the inside of the liner through the hole in the top of the barrel.  Routine cleaning by pumping water up and down with a cleaning rod inserted at the muzzle (like cleaning any other muzzleloader) after shooting leaves no powder fouling on the threads.  If any is there, it is microscopic.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline davec2

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 08:38:58 PM »
Dave,

I just installed a liner in my Ferguson as well.  When I install liners, I use LockTite to seal and fill the threads so that fouling doesn't get in them to begin with.  This has the same effect as Dan's thought about a pipe (tapered) thread, but much easier to do.

Dan,

I would like to respectfully disagree with your comment about a shoulder significantly reducing force on the liner.  The force is a result of the cross sectional area of the liner multiplied by the chamber pressure.  Only if the shoulder / liner interface forms a perfect seal would the area on which the pressure acts be reduced.  Without a genuine seal of some sort (i.e. "O" ring, copper crush washer, etc.) the likelihood that the shoulder forms a perfect seal at 10,000 or 20,000 psi is non existent.  Therefore, the chamber pressure will act on the full diameter of the liner whether there is a shoulder or not.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline jerrywh

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2009, 04:02:51 AM »
I put sealer on all my breech plugs and vent liners. The combustion pressure on the cone shapped inner part of the liner , tends to tighten the liner when the gun fires.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2009, 03:39:39 PM »
I put sealer on all my breech plugs and vent liners. The combustion pressure on the cone shapped inner part of the liner , tends to tighten the liner when the gun fires.

This is a double edged sword.

Dan
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Offline flehto

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2009, 03:54:39 PM »
On the first few WL liner installations I didn't run the tap completely through so the tapered threads would interfere w/ the end threads of the WL and an addt'l seal was produced. Stopped doing this because of the time it took to achieve seals at both ends of the WL liner,  the danger of stripping the fine threads and it really wasn't necessary to begin with. Live and learn....Fred

Offline Dphariss

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2009, 05:33:21 PM »

The fouling pushes betweenthe gaps between the threads. HOWEVER, this is greatly reduced or eliminated if the liner or breech plug or drum for a drum and nipple seals are either end. Sealing to a inner shoulder is best. Sealing at the far end is better than "open".
Threads that can be seen will have to fouling removed by cleaning.
If I seat anything against a shoulder I seal it by fitting, pointless to use a shoulder otherwise.
Where this is impossible I have taken to using thread sealer.
Jerry mentions the liner flexing to seal the threads. Flex is not a good thing unless the part is made of a material that will not work harden.
This can also be reduced by having a tight thread fit. Modern thread "tolerance" allows fouling in. Making a breech plug screw plate with the same tap used to make the threads in the barrel reduces "tolerance"
I have removed breeches from douglas barrels made from 3/4x16 bolts that were only exposed to the fouling where the vent liner was installed and after considerable use they had fouling back 3-5 threads. This was three different 54 caliber rifles I obtained used. There was no serious rust but fouling did get back in there.

The counter  bored liner that I sent to Larry Pletcher tested very well for speed and will produce very low thrust on the liner if properly installed. The test rig, since it was testing different designs made this impractical. I usually make these liners in 10x32. sometimes #12.
In using a #10 or #12 with a .100" diameter hole through the shoulder and a slighter smaller hole for the counterbore there is no chance of a fouling or oil trap if the liner is FITTED tight to the shoulder.
Calculate the area of the .100" hole (3.141 times radius squared) you get .007 square inches. 12000 psi times .007 is 84 pounds if my math it correct. This means that even on a fairly light barrel a shoulder can still be used. It does not take a thick of shoulder to seal the threads or more than 4-5 threads to hold the pressure.
If we use the full tap drill diameter for 1/4 x 28 .213 we get 132 pounds. Plus the 1/4 removes more metal from the breech. So for about .054" increase in diameter we get a about a 50% increase in pressure. Yes the 1/4" is stronger but it also requires a larger hole in the side of the barrel and is more likely to expose breechplug threads.
The square inch thing is why it is so difficult to blow out a threaded part. Look at the tensile on even a low grade 3/4" bolt and compare to the thrust generated by a 54-58 caliber rifle.
I have tested a "soft" 3/4" x 16 plug with 4 threads engaged in a 4140 54 caliber barrel using 200 gr of FFFG swiss a patched RB and a 54 maxi over that with no leakage or movement. This is a pretty heavy proof. I don't recommend 4 threads, but it held.
What does all this mean??
It means I like to seat pressure bearing parts to a shoulder.
Why?
The breech plugs mentioned above and because a rifle I built about 1968 was leaking gas (call it gas cutting) around the "removable" vent liner threads by 1977. This was a 58 with a Numrich barrel that was supposed to be 1 1/8 but measured 1 3/16" so barrel wall was not an issue. Liner likely came from DGW.
So I tend to seal the threads on threaded parts using a shoulder. In most cases it will make a stronger part.
Back about 1967-68 I had a drum break off and penetrate a window when the rifle I had restocked was fired. Yes I failed to support it with the lock plate, I was a kid without anyone to tell me any better, but I have only made one D&N gun since and that about 28 years ago (it was well supported too) and won't make them at all now. Funny a lot of vintage guns have unsupported drums and they apparently did not break off. But I ain't gonna say why.

I am kinda a perfectionist. So I tend to do things the hard way. I get worse as I get older. A lot of what I do concerning barrels and attaching parts to them has it roots in some experience of mine or that of a friend.
Yes there are LOTS of old guns out there with small diameter breechplugs, 4-5 thrreads, not sealed and they never failed.
But some did, at least one was written up by a physician since he removed a breechplug from the man's eye socket after he suffered from horrid headaches for a year of more (this was in a magazine back in the 1980s but he had it in his head for several years IIRC) after his rifle burst.
I am SURE the man that breeched the barrel had done a lot of them the same way and never had one fail. There was no real detail about the exact nature of the failure so the barrel may have burst or bulged and expelled the plug as a result.

Dan

Breech plug being installed in a 50 caliber GM smooth bore barrel. Note it seals the bore. Yeah it takes longer.

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2009, 05:59:06 PM »

But some did, at least one was written up by a physician since he removed a breechplug from the man's eye socket after he suffered from horrid headaches for a year of more (this was in a magazine back in the 1980s but he had it in his head for several years IIRC) after his rifle burst.

Had a breech plug in his eye socket for a year before headaches sent him to the doctor??? Was this in "MAD" magazine by chance??

Offline Dphariss

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2009, 01:14:55 AM »

But some did, at least one was written up by a physician since he removed a breechplug from the man's eye socket after he suffered from horrid headaches for a year of more (this was in a magazine back in the 1980s but he had it in his head for several years IIRC) after his rifle burst.

Had a breech plug in his eye socket for a year before headaches sent him to the doctor??? Was this in "MAD" magazine by chance??

No it was over a year as I recall it was several.
It went in right at the corner of his eye and on examination around the eye the doctor could actually see it if he moved the eye and the tissue around it slightly.
The was a physicians report written for some journal IIRC circa 1830-1840. It was reprinted in an issue of the Blackpowder/Buckskin Report back in the 1970s or 80s. You gotta remember that in the 19th century going to the doctor was a major risk IF you could find one with actual medical training....
I don't feel like spending a hour or more looking for it or I would give the physicians name and where it was originally published.
Dan
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2009, 03:02:54 AM »
I remember the article as well.  Buckskin Report or Blackpowder Report. Same publisher.  Pretty gory looking.  As I remember, it included a part of the tang still attached to the plug. 

Dan, I think I thanked you for all your help with that breech project, but in case i did  not -- thanks for all you did.  I appreciated the pieces you machined and the idea of the spanner wrench for the liners was extreeemly valuable to us.  We made another from a wide bladed screw driver before we were done.  At any rate the help was invaluable.

Regards,
Pletch
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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2009, 05:30:51 AM »
I'll bet he had a flinch after that ;D

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2009, 04:04:16 PM »
No sholder drill all the way thru and fille of the in side. Ed

Offline Dphariss

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Re: White Lightnin Installation, shoulder or no?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2009, 04:11:30 PM »
No sholder drill all the way thru and fille of the in side. Ed

Wouldn't be easier to shorten the liner first??

Dan
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