Author Topic: Short Starters: When?  (Read 7590 times)

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2019, 01:59:51 AM »
I think the short starter got its start in match shooting, at the very end of the true muzzleloading era, and the beginning of the muzzleloading renaissance. Short starters from the golden age of muzzleloading, are virtually unheard of.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2019, 02:51:42 AM »
It seems as though most people try to research "short starter" when they might try some other name for the same thing. Like "bulger". There is first hand observations of mountain men leaving rondezvous  and part of their equipment was a ":bulger", a short stick just under bore size often with a knob on the end. This would have been 1840 or before but the question still remains as to when they were first used.

Do you recall by whom?
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2019, 03:29:19 AM »
Elnathan, that quote was taken from the notes section of the book " Kit Carson Days ": by Edwin L. Sabin, volume 2.  I assume the note #57 p 89 was in volume #1 and I don,t have that volume as of yet but am trying to locate one. If any one on this forum has volume #1 in the paper back version, maybe they could check this out and verify it. I and I might guess others would be interested in the findings.

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2019, 07:13:13 AM »
In his book, The Plains Rifle, author Charles Hanson described these as "straight starters."  He illustrated two of them with an assortment of other shooting accessories in Plate 40 of the book.  One of these was a simple rod of bone, with no distinct handle. The other was of wood, with the handle in line with the shaft (like a screwdriver).  However, Mr. Hanson did not provide any dates or provenance for the two "straight starters" in the photograph.  The caption states the items are in the Museum of the Fur Trade Collection.  The wooden straight starter may be the same one that was drawn by James Hanson for The Mountain Man's Sketch Book, Volume Two (page 19).

Notchy Bob
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Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2019, 08:25:18 AM »
In his book, The Plains Rifle, author Charles Hanson described these as "straight starters."  He illustrated two of them with an assortment of other shooting accessories in Plate 40 of the book.  One of these was a simple rod of bone, with no distinct handle. The other was of wood, with the handle in line with the shaft (like a screwdriver).  However, Mr. Hanson did not provide any dates or provenance for the two "straight starters" in the photograph.  The caption states the items are in the Museum of the Fur Trade Collection.  The wooden straight starter may be the same one that was drawn by James Hanson for The Mountain Man's Sketch Book, Volume Two (page 19).

Notchy Bob

Thank you. I have that book tucked away in one of my boxes, I need to look through it again!

RoaringBull

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2019, 12:00:43 PM »
You know, unless someone invents a time machine and you go back to the 1840's and ask EVERY person that was firing a muzzleloading firearm if they have ever seen, used or heard of a short starter, will we ever REALLY know if they were used or not?

I would imagine that if some feller had a tight fitting combination and a sore or wek thumb and couldn't get it down the barrel far enough to use his ram rod, he would have grabbed SOMETHING to shove it down there where he could...

just saying.

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2019, 05:42:21 PM »
You know, unless someone invents a time machine and you go back to the 1840's and ask EVERY person that was firing a muzzleloading firearm if they have ever seen, used or heard of a short starter, will we ever REALLY know if they were used or not?

I would imagine that if some feller had a tight fitting combination and a sore or wek thumb and couldn't get it down the barrel far enough to use his ram rod, he would have grabbed SOMETHING to shove it down there where he could..

just saying.

Right, right. But for me and my personal uses, I feel as if the starters have a tangible measure of correctitude.

Offline Brokennock

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2019, 06:16:56 PM »
You know, unless someone invents a time machine and you go back to the 1840's and ask EVERY person that was firing a muzzleloading firearm if they have ever seen, used or heard of a short starter, will we ever REALLY know if they were used or not?

I would imagine that if some feller had a tight fitting combination and a sore or wek thumb and couldn't get it down the barrel far enough to use his ram rod, he would have grabbed SOMETHING to shove it down there where he could...

just saying.

So, they wouldn't have just used the ramrod in the gun, holding it with just a  very short part of the loading end sticking past their hand? I'm thinking the flat of the knife blade, or part of the knife handle (without a little nub added) to be the most likely tool used for this scenario.  And we know it was done.

Offline alacran

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2019, 12:07:59 AM »
What is it that you want to do smokey? Do you want to be historically correct?  Do you want to shoot a rifle to its its full potential?
Mr Roller gives sage advise in his previous posts.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2019, 05:20:39 AM »
What is it that you want to do smokey? Do you want to be historically correct?  Do you want to shoot a rifle to its its full potential?
Mr Roller gives sage advise in his previous posts.

Perhaps a little of both?

My research shows short starters are period for my rifle, and should assist in loading a snug ball and patch combo that Mr. Roller (and others) attribute to very good accuracy.

I will also be trying out looser combos just to see how they do in the rifle. I am not a serious competitive target shooter. My shooting style can best be described as recreational target shooter, plinker, and small gamesman. Perhaps a looser combo will more than suffice for my purposes. We shall see.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2019, 06:21:45 AM »
What is it that you want to do smokey? Do you want to be historically correct?  Do you want to shoot a rifle to its its full potential?
Mr Roller gives sage advise in his previous posts.

Perhaps a little of both?

My research shows short starters are period for my rifle, and should assist in loading a snug ball and patch combo that Mr. Roller (and others) attribute to very good accuracy.

I will also be trying out looser combos just to see how they do in the rifle. I am not a serious competitive target shooter. My shooting style can best be described as recreational target shooter, plinker, and small gamesman. Perhaps a looser combo will more than suffice for my purposes. We shall see.

According to Daryl in another post, caliber 40 and down don't require a starter if one is careful not to over-reach his packer, and it's a good packer. I think he runs a .400 ball in his with a sturdy patch, no starter.   So you might not actually need one for a no-wipe tight/accurate combo.  Tha's about what I remember him saying a time or two.   

You only have to load snug enough to prevent accumulation of fouling, there's no point in being tighter than that.  Might be interesting to see how "loose" you can get non-accumulation to work. 
 
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Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2019, 06:51:03 AM »
What is it that you want to do smokey? Do you want to be historically correct?  Do you want to shoot a rifle to its its full potential?
Mr Roller gives sage advise in his previous posts.

Perhaps a little of both?

My research shows short starters are period for my rifle, and should assist in loading a snug ball and patch combo that Mr. Roller (and others) attribute to very good accuracy.

I will also be trying out looser combos just to see how they do in the rifle. I am not a serious competitive target shooter. My shooting style can best be described as recreational target shooter, plinker, and small gamesman. Perhaps a looser combo will more than suffice for my purposes. We shall see.

According to Daryl in another post, caliber 40 and down don't require a starter if one is careful not to over-reach his packer, and it's a good packer. I think he runs a .400 ball in his with a sturdy patch, no starter.   So you might not actually need one for a no-wipe tight/accurate combo.  Tha's about what I remember him saying a time or two.   

You only have to load snug enough to prevent accumulation of fouling, there's no point in being tighter than that.  Might be interesting to see how "loose" you can get non-accumulation to work.

Very interesting indeed! I’ve got some .395” Hornady balls coming and will be going to Jo-Ann’s fabrics tomorrow to get a few pieces of ticking, along with maybe some linen, and so on. I’ve got some mink’s oil for lubrication. With luck the postman should have the balls delivered by a Saturday and I can go to the range then or Sunday. I’m excited!!!

PS: I didn’t measure the twist rate yet for my new rifle, but using my bore light I can clearly tell the rifling only makes about half a complete turn and looks quite slow. I almost certainly have a 1:66 twist, but it’s no matter, many have reported excellent results with it for .40 caliber (and other) Douglas barrels.

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2019, 11:08:09 PM »
Smokey if you plan on shooting at targets first, you can just wet the patches with saliva... After I fire a shot I just pop a patch in my mouth while I'm measuring and pouring my powder... Then load the patch and ball. It works well. It's free. And it'll get you by until you get some mink grease.

Mike

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2019, 02:28:52 PM »
45-110...never say never, rarely is probably correct.

Keep asking questions, Smokey, and don't feel so bad about it.

Unless there's a bloke who personally stood on the back of a wagon and inventoried every accoutrements used at a particular date we have no business  arbitrarily stating what "They" had or did not have because wood, leather, cork and textiles have a habit of not surviving over the years during the pre-industrial era.

The best we can do is to use natural materials and tools if we are going off into conjecture, and don't use any more conjecture than is reasonable.  I find myself more grateful that we even have re-enactors for a culture hungry public than whether or not their buttons are PC, HC or P/AH ( Posture/Attention  Hungry) 

I always thought that the reason starters are hard to find in the early eighteenth century was because rifles were hard to find in the early eighteenth century.  On the other hand, some yob out in the boonies only needed an auger and a chunk of wood to figure it out before he faded into obscurity and his stuff rotted away.

I betcha if more people could write, more stuff would have been documented.   Lacking that, I learned long ago that research is never finished and I'll place a greater value on the guy who asks questions over the guy who stakes himself in the ground over one source every time.

If I run into you somewhere, coffee's on me.

Offline 45-110

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2019, 05:13:13 PM »
Mr. Rollers comment "I am NOT
impressed with some of the 25 and 50 yard groups I see posted here and know from
experiences of years long gone that if the rifle is right,good sights and a tight round ball
load it should make a clover leaf at 100 yards.The last rifle I made for target shooting"
.....I agree 100% with. Almost assuredly a RB rifle that shoots really well at 100+ yds is going to be hard to load at the muzzle. Most any loose load combination will group at 25yds.
kw

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2019, 06:30:07 PM »
Here’s my take on short starters. Since the first long guns were commonly available, there were those among us who wanted to shoot more accurately to outshoot their brother. It wouldn’t take him any longer than an experienced shooter today to realize a ball seated tighter has the potential to be more accurate. Once that realization hit, they were faced with seating that ball. A system to facilitate the ball getting started is the obvious answer. I don’t think they were used in the 18th by the common woodland hunter Or the military, but among those who had accurate competitive shooting in their DNA, it seems inevitable. If we come to an obvious best practice, rest assured that same thought occurred to someone way back when.

I can imagine the old timers in 1740 laughing at the kid’s contortions getting his tight fitting ball loaded, just before he spanked their britches off them in the shoot.

I could be wrong.

Offline Brokennock

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2019, 06:00:55 AM »
One of the most common mistakes we all make in our study and interpretation of 18th century material culture is that of applying our "common sense" and "logic" to people of a completely different mindset, value system, and experience. What to us seems like an obvious conclusion wasn't to them, and I'm sure some of the things we ponder would seem to have an obvious answer to them,,, or (more likely?) would not seem something to ponder or have concern about at all.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2019, 06:11:55 AM »
One of the most common mistakes we all make in our study and interpretation of 18th century material culture is that of applying our "common sense" and "logic" to people of a completely different mindset, value system, and experience. What to us seems like an obvious conclusion wasn't to them, and I'm sure some of the things we ponder would seem to have an obvious answer to them,,, or (more likely?) would not seem something to ponder or have concern about at all.

That is likely absolutely true, but remember, the Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians, when faced with the same technical problems we face today, their Engineers came up with the exact same solutions ours do. They had no internal combustion engine, no hydraulics, no electricity, yet their heavy lift cranes, etc. were, as far as physics goes, the same as ours. A problem is a problem, and I'd guess the average smart guy 5,000 years ago would have a 50/50 chance of finding a more elegant solution to any technical problem our average smart guy today could come up with.

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2019, 10:37:04 PM »
Bob and Brokennock, you are both closer to being right than you both may realize. It is reasonable to assume in absence of any real hard documentation that ball starter could both have been and not have been used. There is some evidence of their usage at times in Europe to some extent or another, and it doesn't take much thought to realize that a stick utilized along with a small stone could easily be used to start a ball with some particularly heaver than normal cloth. It's also not hard to take what evidence is provided by several that have looked at many early original barrels and report that the ends were, for a lack of a better term, coned. It's also not hard to realize that tighter loading may not have been that common when rapidity of reloads were, in some instances, more valuable than the utmost of accuracy. In the end the best we can come up with what we have now is 'maybe, maybe not'. Unless one is actually reenacting, then it doesn't matter, and if one is reenacting then go with the best supported hard documentation.
Psalms 144

Offline Darrin McDonal

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2019, 08:04:10 PM »
The simple answer is they don't show up until the 20th century.
Darrin
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2019, 08:10:19 PM »
The simple answer is they don't show up until the 20th century.
Darrin

Incorrect. 
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Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2019, 08:55:26 PM »
The simple answer is they don't show up until the 20th century.
Darrin

Yeah that just ain't the case brodingo.

Guys I made one. :)

Its based off an original from the shooting pouch from the plains rifle period. I'll show you this afternoon!

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2019, 10:58:20 PM »
Context matters in these discussions. I believe the real question is not, “When did short starters first appear?” but rather, “When did short starters become a common and preferred way of seating a ball into the muzzle of an ordinary muzzleloading rifle used for hunting?”

Something can exist for a long time and used in special circumstances before achieving common usage. Look up “fuel injection in internal combustion engines”.

Fuel injection existed since the 1920s in Diesel engines. Then was used in gas-powered aircraft engines in the 1940s. And used in race cars etc from the 50s onward. But carburetors ruled everyday gas cars and trucks until the 1970s. So if the question was, “when did most car and trucks with gas engines have fuel injection?”, the answer would be “after the mid 1970s.”

Similarly the early use of short starters on specialized target guns or for British military use has zero relevance if the question is, “when did short starters become common in kits of American riflemen who were not shooting specialized target rifles?.”
Andover, Vermont

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2019, 11:15:42 PM »
Rich: I do believe you nailed it with your last post. Thank you.
 Until they make a time machine and we can go back and see for ourselves a lot of it is conjecture, evidence and common sense.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Short Starters: When?
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2019, 11:23:17 PM »
"Only accurate rifles are interesting"so said Col.Townsend Whelen back in "the day".
Daimler Benz had fuel injected V12 aircraft engines in service during WW2 and they
could pull up out of a hard dive and still have power for a climb whereas the normally
aspirated Allison/Rolls Royce/Packard V12 would lose power.I have worked on Mercedes
inline engines that had a cam timed fuel injected system that had an independent timing
chain and it was simple and way better than a carburetor.I do not ever want another car
with a carburetor/choke system.Our 22 year old Lincoln Town Car starts instantly no matter
how cold it gets or how long it sets without being started.
  This has NO thing to do with short starters but does show the superiority of the "Einsprtzsystem
over the Vergasser ;D"

Bob Roller