Caliber question

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I need to build a rifle for fairly long range Elk hunting. Up to 200 yards.  Would a .54 be big enough or should I go bigger?

Cory Joe Stewart

[Pukka Bundook]

I think I'd go with a .450" slug gun or Whitworth style for 200 yards, Cory.  (Fast twist  and say 500 grain.)

[rich pierce]

Talk to Herb. He knows and can also shoot game to 200 yards reliably. I can’t.

[Daryl]

For a maximum range of 200yards, I would suggest either a .45 or .50 bulleted gun, made specifically for slugs
as Richard notes, in the 400 to 500gr. range- then a lot of experimentation and practicing at that range with that gun.
For such a long range round ball gun, I would suggest nothing under 16 bore or .66 calibre or better yet, a 14 bore or
 .69cal. would be even better.

200yards is a long bloody poke for a round ball gun.  The 14 bore will do it and will use 150gr. 2F or so. Multi-leaf sights are
pretty much necessary.
The English style sporting rifle is the ultimate style for this type of gun. Weighing 9 to 9 1/2 pounds with it's wide shot-gun
type butt plate to distribute recoil, they are indeed the ultimate hunting rifle.
A bullet firing barrel of .45 or .50 cal would also work well on this style of rifle. As Richard noted, heavy bullet and 18" to 20"
 twist in .45 and I would suggest 24" in .50.
For the 16 or 14 bore rifle, a rate of twist 66" to about 85" would work just fine. There is no need to go slower in rate of twist.
Even the 66" twist will shoot powder charges accurately, that you will not enjoy shooting. In my particular rifle with 66" twist, the
best longer range accuracy came from 165gr. 2F & maintained that accuracy up to 200gr., which, in the 9 1/2 pound rifle, was not fun
to shoot.
Express sights are available at Brownell's which is where I bought mine, in 1986.
I have filed the leaves for 100, 150 and 200 yards using 140gr. of the current GOEX, which seems to give the same ballistics as 165gr. 2F GOEX did in 1986.

[snapper]

Check the state you want to hunt for a min. Cal. I think you will find that most states will not allow a 45 cal bullet rifle

Fleener

[Hungry Horse]

IMO, trying to kill elk with a muzzleloader a 200 yards is unsportsmanlike. The likelihood of wounding is very real. It a lot cheaper, and easier, to learn how to get closer to the elk.

  Hungry Horse

[snapper]

You could build a .50 or .54 cal bullet ML.   Use a good grade barrel and appropriate sights, 200 yards is very doable.

Fleener

[longcruise]

Range estimation and wind doping will be essential skills for shooting that range in the field.  I have several times scored 200 meter rams shot with a broad selection of round ball guns including a few smooth bores.  Hits are few and far between.  The best I ever saw was 5/10.  If you only counted hits in the vital zones the ratio goes straight to the basement!  Shots were from a solid bench.

I vote for the 45.  Still a major learning curve but way more doable.

[alacran]

A very good friend of mine and myself, took 5 shots to figure out where to hold a 140 grain 2f load in a left handed .62 caliber Hawken. That was to hit a 12 inch by 24 inch propane gong at 200 yards. After that we hit it consistently. There was no wind and it was a known distance range. I mention that it was a left handed rifle because we are both right handed. The rifle did not belong to either of us and it was the first time we shot it. Of course we were shooting offhand.
I would never have taken such a shot on an animal. Way to many things can go wrong. Even an elk looks small through open iron.
I like to get as close as possible to elk when hunting them. A 125 yard shot would be the max and conditions would have to be perfect. That being said the longest shot I've taken at elk was 95 yards the shortest was 20 yards.

[oldtravler61]

..It all boils down to how close you can get. Know the area an the terrain. If your hunting with a guide tell them what you want to do an listen to what they recommend. A 54. will do the job but YOU have to do your part an stay within your rifles capabilities. A lot of big game has been shot with a 50 caliber 
Just saying....  Oldtravler

[45-110]

200 yd shot at elk will take a flip up leaf style rear sight or a tang sight. Especially with a round ball rifle. My .58 Hawken rd. ball groups really open up at 100 yds in a Montana cross wind. The Bull I just took with it was at 100 yds prone. Had all summer to practice with it, some days in poor light it was a real challenge to hit the shaded bull. A purpose built "bullet" gun would be better for 200 yds.
kw

[RichG]

I would think a 58 would be bare minimum. With a laser range finder the range would be easy to determine. The biggest problem I see is seeing the sights/target. The thickness off front sight I need  to be able to see the sight limits my long shots to 100-125yds. With young eyes and fine sights and a range finder I thinks it's doable. Conditions would have to be perfect. Broadside and no idea your there.

[MuskratMike]

200 yards with a patched round ball? Doesn't matter what caliber and charge you use. I hope you are a skilled tracker, have good snow, and shoot it early in the morning because it might be dark and a long ways away before you get a second shot.
Just don't do it. If that's the closest you can get use a center fire or breech loading BP cartridge rifle.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Thanks everyone.  200 plus seemed a little much to me.

Cory Joe

[Daryl]

 200 yards on moose or elk with a round ball gun is not out of the question, but as I noted above, there are some criteria must be met.
1st of all, the calibre and charge must be capable - secondly, so must the hunter/shooter.

We have proved this capability, accuracy wise, using my .69 rifle. All 10 shots in the kill zone of an elk or moose sized area.
5 shots offhand and 5 shots sitting with cross sticks.

So-saying it cannot be done is different than saying most people should not attempt it.
The hunter would need to practice at a variety of ranges out to 200yards and become proficient to that range.

Is it recommended, no, due to unforeseen problems - with range, lighting & with wind, the huge stickler. round balls blow a long ways, in a breeze.
Simply hitting a 16" x 14" target time after time at 200 meters (218yds) offhand is a regular occurrence, if you practice doing that.
At our long range, now, we have 50, 100 , 150, 200, 300, 385, 500 and 600 meter targets.
The first 4 listed are quite easy, with my rifle.

Would I purposely attempt such a shot on a moose or elk? No. I would get closer if possible. But, I could.

[Pukka Bundook]

Daryl,

Re. getting closer;
Once I shot a cow elk, and the rest ran about 50yards and stopped.  I walked up to the cow , lifting my feet up to my ears to clear the snow, and those other cows stood there until I was right up to the downed beast.
Seemed odd I could walk up to them like that in the wide open...    (Always expect the unexpected with elk!)

Cow moose feeding in shallows of the river here one season;
No licence but thought I'd see cow close I could get to her in the open.  When she wasn't looking I stalked her till I was within 40 yards of her.
She looked suspicious a couple of times, but didj't bolt.
I figured 40 yards was close enough, and in time she wandered off.

What you say above about ball guns is entirely right!
You need a Big ball to knock down big game, (Bigger for elk than moose most times,) If you are shooting at Long Range.
A 12-bore ball will work very well, but you Must practice to get good results.

[MuskratMike]

Daryl: I have no doubt that with practice and a favorable load you can (all conditions being right) hit the kill zone at 200 yards. The problem is at that distance on a elk or moose you have lost too much energy to drop the animal. I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade but as hunters we have an ethical responsibility to quickly and humanly kill our quarry. In my time I have been lucky enough to shoot with some fantastic marksmen (myself not being one) who can make some long distance shots seem easy. This is just my opinion.

[Daryl]

MuskratMike- I agree - as I said; "Would I purposely attempt such a shot on a moose or elk? No. I would get closer if possible. But, I could."

I should have put "theoretically" after the But, and in front of the I.

[borderdogs]

I live in NH and most shots are 100 yards at best. I wouldnt take an animal at 200 yards with ml or a cartridge gun. I know people who do and I personally saw a 500 yard shot on a coyote 1 shot dead. When I was a kid my dad took a shot at a deer that was less than 25 yards from us and he hit it. We spent the rest of the day looking for that deer and never found it. My dad didnt say anything but I knew it bothered him and that was the last time he hunted. He was using an 1858 Springfield rifled musket (Model 1855 dated 1858). Like I said 100 yards or less for me.............
Rob

[Scota4570]

You will require a very large bore rifle.  Balls slow down very fast and loose the energy needed to get the job done.  Trajectory will be rainbow.  You will need a laser range finder.  It will be impossible to judge range accurately enough by eye, in the field.  You will need an excellent adjustable peep sight. 

https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html

A 75 caliber ball starting at 1450 fps and zeroed at 50 yards, will be 836 fps, 982 FP, and dropped 53" at 200 yards. 

Or....just get closer. 

[Scota4570]

You will require a very large bore rifle.  Balls slow down very fast and loose the energy needed to get the job done.  Trajectory will be rainbow.  You will need a laser range finder.  It will be impossible to judge range accurately enough by eye, in the field.  You will need an excellent adjustable peep sight. 

https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/web_apps/rb_ballistics.html

A 75 caliber ball starting at 1450 fps and zeroed at 50 yards, will be 836 fps, 982 FP, and dropped 53" at 200 yards.  What is the actual field conditions group size?  I'd say around 2' would be a reasonable expectation. 

Or....just get closer. The bow hunters can do it, so can we. 

[rich pierce]

I hate to mention it here but a rifled musket with a minie ball was designed to kill at long range.

[Scota4570]

I hate to mention it here but a rifled musket with a minie ball was designed to kill at long range.

That is equivalent to a modern 20 ga slug fired from a rifled barrel, hardly a long range elk killer. 

[rich pierce]

I hate to mention it here but a rifled musket with a minie ball was designed to kill at long range.

That is equivalent to a modern 20 ga slug fired from a rifled barrel, hardly a long range elk killer.

There are some similarities but I’m not sure you’ve studied rifled muskets. Kill a horse at a quarter mile. Accurate.

[borderdogs]

I agree they are accurate no question about it and made to kill. My Great Great Grandfather carried a Minnie ball in his hip had it served up by a Confed at the Peach Orchard at Gettysburg. I shot mostly round balls but I shot a lot of Minnie balls at 200+ yards at plywood targets with good results. Even though, I would still try to keep a hunting range at 100 yards and hunt rather than snipe..........it was a lesson I learned when I was young and at a much shorter range.
Rob