Horn Checking?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Guys I’ve got a new horn inbound from eBay. Unknown age but looks at least 50 years old, maybe much older.

Guys what’s a good way to check for airtightness, crack, leaks, seeps, crevices, gouges, holes, pits, fissures, etc.? I’ve heard a hole in the horn is bad because a spark can get it and it might blow up and kill you.

Thoughts?

[snapper]

After an external visual, put the tip to your mouth and blow on it. 

Fleener

[Bob McBride]

Great advise above, and you heard right. Remember, you’re making fire with a pound of explosives on your person. Make pushing the horn behind you before you fire a habit. Pretty good ‘best practice’ advise coming from a feller who had 3.5lbs of black powder go off in his hands. 3rd degree burns over 11% of your body is a bad day. Be safe with old horns.

[MuskratMike]

Follow snappers advise. It's the best and safest way without causing damage to the old orn or its owner.

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks guys! Just give her a blow? Simple enough!

[RoaringBull]

Great advise above, and you heard right. Remember, you’re making fire with a pound of explosives on your person. Make pushing the horn behind you before you fire a habit. Pretty good ‘best practice’ advise coming from a feller who had 3.5lbs of black powder go off in his hands. 3rd degree burns over 11% of your body is a bad day. Be safe with old horns.

The organization that I shoot with will not allow powder horns to be used on our firing lines for reasons just like that. We only allow metal flasks, that will fit back into your pouch, or a small horn that will fit back into your pouch.

[Smokey Plainsman]

I read this recently:

https://traditionalblackpowderhunting.com/2013/04/the-powder-horn-blew-up/

Just trying to be safe. Last thing I want is my fun range day to turn into a visit to the burn unit.

[Bob McBride]

My incident wasn't with a horn. I sold a large collection of 1800's powder cans most of which had powder in them. I emptied all the powder into a tupperware and walked outside to toss the powder into an old burn hole I was getting ready to bury. Walking across the grass in my Poppen Mocs and WHAM, static ignition. If it wasnt for a full beard and glasses and the fact that I was holding it away from my body it would've been really really bad. As it was, I was standing there in shock, on fire, most of my exposed skin sagging off, and looking at a mushroom cloud. Lucky my father and Aunt were at the house. Not sure I could've driven myself to the ER without hitting a ditch. Always be safe.

[Mike from OK]

It pays to be vigilant. But I have to wonder what the chances are of this occurring.

Not trying to be cute, but I almost think you would have a greater chance of being struck by lightning. However, I think using a cracked, broken, or otherwise faulty horn is a bad idea. It's a good excuse to buy a new horn anyway.

Mike

[Bob McBride]

It pays to be vigilant. But I have to wonder what the chances are of this occurring.

Not trying to be cute, but I almost think you would have a greater chance of being struck by lightning. However, I think using a cracked, broken, or otherwise faulty horn is a bad idea. It's a good excuse to buy a new horn anyway.

Mike

It’s one in something I can tell you that. Keep in mind the old powder wasn’t coated in graphite like the new stuff (which is done to make it less susceptible to static). Point is, be careful with the stuff.

[Greg Pennell]

Wow Bob...I’ve spent a good portion of my adult life working with explosives (combat engineer in the Army), and have always heard about the dangers of static discharge...but what are the odds?  I can only imagine the level of pain and shock...my only experience with a black powder burn happened years ago when I had my hand cupped around the lock trying to muffle the cocking sound, and managed to discharge the rifle with my hand still over the pan. The palm of my right hand and in particular the web between my thumb and forefinger got singed pretty good.  You could see burned powder granules in my skin for years after...and that was only a few grains.

Greg

[Bob McBride]

Wow Bob...I’ve spent a good portion of my adult life working with explosives (combat engineer in the Army), and have always heard about the dangers of static discharge...but what are the odds?  I can only imagine the level of pain and shock...my only experience with a black powder burn happened years ago when I had my hand cupped around the lock trying to muffle the cocking sound, and managed to discharge the rifle with my hand still over the pan. The palm of my right hand and in particular the web between my thumb and forefinger got singed pretty good.  You could see burned powder granules in my skin for years after...and that was only a few grains.

Greg

Yea, it was brutal. Mainly the arm holding it but my torso and head as well. I’ve got some pics that would curl your toes. Anyway, I shared just to impress upon a new shooter to be careful with a horn that might not be 100%.

[Smokey Plainsman]

My incident wasn't with a horn. I sold a large collection of 1800's powder cans most of which had powder in them. I emptied all the powder into a tupperware and walked outside to toss the powder into an old burn hole I was getting ready to bury. Walking across the grass in my Poppen Mocs and WHAM, static ignition. If it wasnt for a full beard and glasses and the fact that I was holding it away from my body it would've been really really bad. As it was, I was standing there in shock, on fire, most of my exposed skin sagging off, and looking at a mushroom cloud. Lucky my father and Aunt were at the house. Not sure I could've driven myself to the ER without hitting a ditch. Always be safe.

I’m saddened that happened to you! Very scary.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have an opinion regarding ignition of black powder with static electricity.  I don't think it can be done.  I have seen scientific efforts to ignite powder with static electricity and it wasn't possible.  The dust from black powder, or flour or even wood, is another matter.

[Bob McBride]

I have an opinion regarding ignition of black powder with static electricity.  I don't think it can be done.  I have seen scientific efforts to ignite powder with static electricity and it wasn't possible.  The dust from black powder, or flour or even wood, is another matter.

This says it can.

[snapper]

I got to admit that I too was surprised.   Not that I dont believe you in what happened.   The first thing in my mind is I wondered if the dust from the old powder and static electricity was the cause.

Fleener

[Bob McBride]

Could be. I researched for months afterwards because i was so shocked that it happened. I still cant get my mind around it. It's like telling a ghost story, especially to folks who've been around BP, but it happened, and therefore it can happen again. (I'm sure it had to do with the powder being such old stock, and could've been the amount of dust in the powder from all the years of banging around in the tins.)

Anyway, crazy story, but true.

[WadePatton]

I have an opinion regarding ignition of black powder with static electricity.  I don't think it can be done.  I have seen scientific efforts to ignite powder with static electricity and it wasn't possible.  The dust from black powder, or flour or even wood, is another matter.

I think the static ignited some dust of the powder and/or it was the fact of no graphite coating on the old powders, as well as their aged condition. 

I've seen the video of static on BP not igniting, but reason that it was fresh powder, no wear from handling and a fresh graphite coating.

Glad you survived the incident.

[smokinbuck]

Years ago I was caught in an original powder flask explosion. I dumped the "old" powder into an open can and was going to burn it off. As I brought a lit match close to the can it went off, approximately 1/2 pound. The blast caught me full in the face. Between my glasses, which melted, and a heavy mustache it was bad but could have been worse. I truly believe it was dust from the old powder floating over the can that ignited. You can't be careful enough.

[Bob McBride]

Interesting you mentioned your glasses. Mine melted as well. I have a pic of them somewhere. The lenses looked like they were sandblasted. If I’d have been wearing my contacts I’d be blind today. No doubt about it.

The whole dust thing got me reminiscing. It’s seems, upon reflecting, there was a slight ‘whoosh’ followed by the main explosion perhaps 1/10th of a second later. Could have been the dust. However, being on the receiving end makes the dust, which is an invariable part of the whole black powder equation, less interesting than the static to me.

[WadePatton]

Dust is what destroys grain elevators and other such industrial food/organic matter processing/handling facilities.  Organic fine dust ignites, nothing to do with BP, but has been very devastating and has happened all over the world. (One of the worst in this country: https://worldhistoryproject.org/1977/12/22/westwego-grain-elevator-explosion )

Dust reacts to static, and that ignites the "main charge", is how I see it (as you state there Bob). There's also a paper speaking to the multiple explosions. http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1995/9561/956106.PDF

I'll be a little extra careful if I ever get my hands on some old powder that's for sure.  But of course due care is demanded by fresh and old.  It's our responsibility to understand all we can about these things, for our best safety for that of those around us.

[Mike from OK]

It pays to be vigilant. But I have to wonder what the chances are of this occurring.

Not trying to be cute, but I almost think you would have a greater chance of being struck by lightning. However, I think using a cracked, broken, or otherwise faulty horn is a bad idea. It's a good excuse to buy a new horn anyway.

Mike

It’s one in something I can tell you that. Keep in mind the old powder wasn’t coated in graphite like the new stuff (which is done to make it less susceptible to static). Point is, be careful with the stuff.

My fault for not clarifying Bob, I wasn't doubting your incident.

 I was referring to the link Smokey shared... The guy's horn with a hairline crack... that he had sealed over... Yet the powder was still set off by a stray spark from ignition in his rifle's pan. I don't doubt the story, but those are some long odds.

I guess what I'm saying is that things like the incident Smokey shared might make us paranoid about a powder horn. But we don't think twice about climbing in a vehicle to drive to the shooting range... Even though the chances of dying in a car accident are probably a billion times greater.

Mike

[Mike from OK]

Dust is what destroys grain elevators and other such industrial food/organic matter processing/handling facilities.  Organic fine dust ignites, nothing to do with BP, but has been very devastating and has happened all over the world. (One of the worst in this country: https://worldhistoryproject.org/1977/12/22/westwego-grain-elevator-explosion )

Dust reacts to static, and that ignites the "main charge", is how I see it (as you state there Bob). There's also a paper speaking to the multiple explosions. http://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1995/9561/956106.PDF

I'll be a little extra careful if I ever get my hands on some old powder that's for sure.  But of course due care is demanded by fresh and old.  It's our responsibility to understand all we can about these things, for our best safety for that of those around us.

One of the scariest things I've ever encountered in my career involved dust in a grain elevator environment. I was working for a contractor at a facility that made soy protein isolate... The stuff they put in baby formula, protein shakes, etc... The raw material was soy "flakes" (more like powder) that was shipped in via railroad grain hoppers.

The cars were moved into a bay and the hopper doors would be opened and the soy powder would fall into a pit and ride bucket legs up to the top of the silos and be dumped in. Of course as soon as the hopper doors were opened the powder would flow and dust would fill the air. Everyone understood the danger involved and a dust collection apparatus was employed. But it didn't do a very good job of keeping up with the volume of dust produced... Some days you couldn't see from one end of the bay to the other. Even worse was fact that the dust collector used hoses to suck the dust up. The hoses were plastic with metal couplings on both ends. The dust and debris would flow through the plastic hoses and a charge would build. And the charge would dissipate by arcing off the metal couplings.

So we get a work order to fix this. We proceed into the bay and are standing next to a railcar while the operator is explaining what needs to be done... And it was DUSTY in there... And the whole time this guy is talking to us there is a tic, tic, tic, tic... The tic was the charge building and arcing off the hose couplings. Every second or so like a clock ticking off the seconds.

We wound up grounding just about everything we could attach wire to. Put jumpers across the hose couplings, and added clamps for the operator to ground the rail cars. In addition to that, the plant maintenance guys built an enclosure to surround the hoppers and keep the dust corralled so the collectors could suck it up.

We got it done and pretty much solved the problem... But my hair was standing on end the entire time we were in there. To this day I can't believe that bay hadn't exploded at some point before we fixed it.

Mike

[Bull Shannon]

After an external visual, put the tip to your mouth and blow on it. 
Fleener

Yep, simple as that. And yes, sparks can get into a hole in a powderhorn. Which is a bad thing; go figure.

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks, all.

My new horn arrived and yes, there’s some small leakage around the wood plug. The actual horn is in great shape, no bug holes etc. but I’ll need to seal the wood.

So what works? I’ve got some 2 part epoxy laying around. Maybe that? Something else? Thanks yall!