Author Topic: Aging question  (Read 25677 times)

Offline Pat_Cameron

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2009, 05:14:42 PM »
Quote: The 'aging' of these antiques hints at a myriad of stories and adventures.

YES!. BUT--- MY RIFLE, My adventures, My stories. And they will be REAL!

For a historic piece it represents historical adventures and stories. BUT THEY WERE REAL!

In my mind for a person to take a rifle, even a simple well made rifle and distress the finish to give the impression that he has experienced many hunts and adventures is the worst forgery and fraud that a person can commit. I don't care wether he sells it for money or not. He is fabricating or implying a lye!  It is fraud of a persons character. It is a permanet fraud of the rifles history! These battle scars of life that are sometimes bestowed upon a rifles finish can only be earned in one way. Maybe I am not understanding the concept. It is their equipment they can do what ever they want but I find the whole concept very upsetting.

It's my opinion. I obviously feel very strongly about it. I may regret saying it.
I don't even know why I find it so upsetting but I do.
It would be interesting to take my blood pressure right now over something as silly as this.

I have to finish packing. We are off to Dixon's tonight then on to Kentucky for a week in a log cabin in the middle of the Daniel Boone National forest.  
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 06:28:21 PM by Dale H »
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2009, 06:52:29 PM »
HORROR! FRAUD! ABOMINATION! KILL THE BUILDER! ;D Just kidding....Isn't this Bess far more interesting than a brand new polished up and shiny one? Just me I supose but for just hangin' over the fire place or usin' I much prefer this look.





« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 06:55:20 PM by Mike Brooks »
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2009, 07:12:53 PM »
I love it Mike...(but then I buy stone washed Levis too... ;D)
The patina and character you've imparted speak volumes.
I truly believe that adding "age" like that is an artform and extension of the gun making craft, one you have truly mastered.  
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« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 07:15:14 PM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2009, 07:20:22 PM »
I'm with Mike. But as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've got no problem with folks building them to look brand spanking new either!
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flintman-tx

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2009, 07:38:43 PM »
Seems like everytime this topic comes up, somebody has to blow up. If you like them looking new...it is your money and I don't have the right to tell you otherwise. I don't consider you a pilgrim, pork eater or the like. If you like it that way, for heaven's sake...BUY IT LIKE THAT!!!. On the other hand, if someone else likes some age, patina or whatever, don't think they are thieves, fakes and frauds just looking for a chance to steal money from an unware soul. Tastes vary and they have the right TO BUY IT LIKE THAT. To imply otherwise is censorship ...regardless of which way they want it to look! Is there fraud out there? Yes..but to imply that everyone who wants an older looking gun is one of them is just not so!

Offline B.Barker

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2009, 08:16:13 PM »
If ageing a gun or accouterments is fraud then all of us reinactors are also. Non of us have ever been in a fire fight with muzzleloaders or lived on our own hundreds of miles from civilization. But we still put on the clothes and play like we have. Just my oppinion. I know I'm stirring the pot. ;)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2009, 08:33:10 PM »
I don't think anybody has "blown up" over this. Seems like a nice exchange of information. As was already stated, some like em new, some like em old and all for different reasons. No big deal to me either way, build them and buy them the way you want! ;D
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Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

jmforge

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2009, 08:58:36 PM »
Well, i AM a pork eater!  Love the stuff ;D I was mostly curious as to how this practice developed.  Like I said before, the only other collectible that I know of where folks do this alot is guitars.  A Tom Murphy "aged" Gibson 1959 Les Paul reissue will cost you over $10,000 on EvilBay, whereas you can get the same git-fiddle as it comes from the Gibson Custom Shop for around $5-6k.  Fender may have been the first to do this with their Relic series, but in that case, you were actually getting a distress nitro lacquer finish as opposed to the normal poly, whereas the Gibson Historics already come with the "thin skin" lacquer finish regardless of whether you buy the shiny  Regular or or slightly dulled VOS finish or the "aged" ones.

Offline KLMoors

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2009, 09:23:11 PM »
The question of how the taste for an aged firearm developes  is a good one. In my case I have no idea! I have way too many other hobies and I like all that stuff to be kept as good looking as possible but when it comes to a long gun, the one Mike pictured is just plain prettier (to my eye) than a new looking one.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2009, 10:12:07 PM »
Quote
The question of how the taste for an aged firearm developes  is a good one. In my case I have no idea!
As mentioned before, it's a trend.  Aged guns are the "Rat Rods" of muzzleloading.  Old guys wax nostalgic and want guns like they "used to see."  So some ole codger builds one.  All his buddies think it's neat and they gotta have one.  Pretty soon some kid who doesn't even know what the movement is about takes it to the next level.  He starts dragging them down the driveway, beating them up, spraying them with primer and painting flames on them.  Then some Harvard MBA sees an opportunity to build a muzzleloading dragster and make the big bucks.  The inline is born.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2009, 10:35:07 PM »
Quote
I guess the burning question is how did that taste develop?  In every other field of collecting that I can think of, including every other type of firearms collecting, given two items of the same type and similar provenance, the one that is in "newer" condition will be more desirable and therefore bring the higher price.
come on Jim you know better than that - as Eric noted above distressed furniture and even new made musical instruments with an aged patina are now being made and sold at a premium.

Also you're a knife maker and should know that aged pieces by Dan Winkler and many others  bring a premium. And leather goods, in particular the cowboy gear as well as 18th Century stuff, ALWAYS brings a premium by the better known makers.
As for lies, fraud, etc - what we who engage in this particular form of art is create fiction (whether it be good bad or otherwise is another topic) - it is no more a lie than a novel or a painting is when compared to a work of non-fiction or a technical drawing......and again as Eric noted, not every buyer of our goods is a re-eenactor (who seem to be the most often offended - IMO a persoan l problem) and those statements accusing makers of fraud (which is a crime involving intent and not just construction) whether touted as "opinion" or not is in fact bordering on libel so I would suggest being careful slinging such mud especially in this litigious society of ours today - personally I don't take offense, since I take the source into account and besides my customers like my work and are willing to pay for it which means much more than someone's opinion....
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2009, 10:43:15 PM »
Quote
The question of how the taste for an aged firearm developes  is a good one. In my case I have no idea!
As mentioned before, it's a trend.  Aged guns are the "Rat Rods" of muzzleloading.  Old guys wax nostalgic and want guns like they "used to see."  So some ole codger builds one.  All his buddies think it's neat and they gotta have one.  Pretty soon some kid who doesn't even know what the movement is about takes it to the next level.  He starts dragging them down the driveway, beating them up, spraying them with primer and painting flames on them.  Then some Harvard MBA sees an opportunity to build a muzzleloading dragster and make the big bucks.  The inline is born.
Actually the inline was born a long time ago - during the same era as the American longrifle - two examples:




not sure when the hi-cap assault Bess was developed  though ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 10:58:03 PM by ChuckBurrows »
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2009, 11:32:00 PM »
Sure....that Bess is a serious "Class 3" fire arm...and I'm pretty sure I cant even look at those pictures of it let alone own it here in Illinois... :(
TCA
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jmforge

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2009, 11:37:33 PM »
Quote
The question of how the taste for an aged firearm developes  is a good one. In my case I have no idea!
As mentioned before, it's a trend.  Aged guns are the "Rat Rods" of muzzleloading.  Old guys wax nostalgic and want guns like they "used to see."  So some ole codger builds one.  All his buddies think it's neat and they gotta have one.  Pretty soon some kid who doesn't even know what the movement is about takes it to the next level.  He starts dragging them down the driveway, beating them up, spraying them with primer and painting flames on them.  Then some Harvard MBA sees an opportunity to build a muzzleloading dragster and make the big bucks.  The inline is born.

Whoa, Chuck......I think that you got two posts mixed up.  the fraud comment was in someone elses response. :o ;D  I thought about guys like Dan and you who make what some call "primitive" knives (those are some of the most precisely measured, crafted and finished primitive items that you will ever see). Like another poster said, there is a difference between making a knife with forge finish or patination on the blade and "dragin the gun behind your truck". ;D  IMO, your knives look more like something that had been used as intended for a few hunting seasons as opposed to something that is 200 years old.  In that regard, I guess that I am a bit guilty of "aging" because I dye my stag handles to get that amber look. ;) With that said, I have also wondered in the past about how you guys came to build knives in that style.
As for those two older guns, that inline is pretty cool looking.   It must have either been very hard to produce or not have worked that well because the design sure seems to cure some issues with flintlocks....namely waterproofing!  As for the Bess, it is clearly fake made from Brownells parts.  A real full auto one would have the triple hammers and the crank on the other side. ;D
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 11:40:43 PM by jmforge »

eagle24

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 11:42:25 PM »
Here's my 2 cents worth (and that's about what it is worth).  I'm new to this and got really interested in longrifles just a few years ago.  I have absolutely no time for or interest in reenacting, but nothing against those who do.  I just love shooting and hunting with longbows (and now longrifles).  The contemporary rifles that appeal to me most are those built with aged finishes of varying degree.  I've seen a few that I thought were overdone, but that's just my preference.  Who am I to criticize the guy that built it or the guy that bought it if it appeals to them (and it must have).  Same goes for the ones built to look new.  I like them too, but prefer an aged finish.  Maybe I just feel better about shooting and handling a rifle with some aging.  I'd sure hate to put the first ding on an "undinged" rifle.

I guess the thing I don't understand in this discussion is the part about fraud, deceit, dishonesty associated with building a contemporary rifle that looks like an antique.  First of all, if a guy is a collector, I believe he is responsible for knowing what he is buying.  I've seen antique rifles that sold for less than some of the aged contemporary rifles (represented as contemporary rifles).  The really expensive original rifles I have seen had a provenance that went with them to make the price high.  The way I see it, the deceit or fraud, would have to be a lie told about the history of the item, not the finishing technique employed by the builder.  I would guess there are far more lies out there about original antiques (rifles, furniture, whatever) than about contemporary pieces.  How many of you know someone that has told you a story about an antique that you doubted?

That's the way I look at it, and if you read all this I told you up front it wasn't worth much. ;D
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 11:44:24 PM by GHall »

Offline t.caster

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2009, 12:03:15 AM »
Here's a twist on this I don't think anyone touched on. When I used to display my finished rifles at gun shows I would get countless comments that "that's to pretty to take out in the woods" which just grinds me, since I build them to be USED. I know it is a compliment, but it sells my work way short. So I started dulling them down some and found they were much better recieved!
Tom C.

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2009, 01:25:24 AM »
Quote
Whoa, Chuck......I think that you got two posts mixed up.  the fraud comment was in someone elses response. :o ;D  I thought about guys like Dan and you who make what some call "primitive" knives (those are some of the most precisely measured, crafted and finished primitive items that you will ever see). Like another poster said, there is a difference between making a knife with forge finish or patination on the blade and "dragin the gun behind your truck". ;D  IMO, your knives look more like something that had been used as intended for a few hunting seasons as opposed to something that is 200 years old.  In that regard, I guess that I am a bit guilty of "aging" because I dye my stag handles to get that amber look. ;) With that said, I have also wondered in the past about how you guys came to build knives in that style.

first Joe excuse me for calling you Jim - brain @$#% there  :-\

Two - yes I am not trying to make something look 200 years old, but rather what you said....
I started building what I do because I have always tried in my work to imitate the past by making knives and other gear as much like the originals at least as regards materials - while I have used and still do use the same methods at times, at others I use electric power tools since I don't have water or steam available, and finding an apprentice to do the grunt work for a pittance is tough these days - the aging came a bit later and is admittedly a form of artistic expression and challenge......

Also my remarks re: fraud, etc. were not aimed at you - I just ran my comments together....
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2009, 01:49:41 AM »
Ok since I'll be at Dixon's for on to 3 days I'll stir the pot some.  3 days time it will calm down again ???

Recent fowler near finished and put into bench vise (padded) I was aware the padding was kinda funky so I picked up a cotton baby blanket (not my baby) and padded said fowler 'better'!!  Did my thing whatever it was and removed the fowler from the padded vise.  Suprised to see several dings in the side of the butt. Now how in the devil did they get there on my new pristine girl?? Immediate use of hot water and steam iron on cloth pulled them partly....
Finally examined said baby blanket and found dried cat food meat stuck in the material, which was rock hard and this distressed the butt area of the stock..So, I managed to do something that I doubt any old timer managed to do!! ::)

So, I call it patina.   I didn't and wouldn't drag it down the driveway etc but the result is a little bit the same. So, does this add a premium in value or a cut in value. ???

Let the experts ponder that one a while ;D

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2009, 02:35:26 AM »
I don't think aging a guns is fraud. Some people just like them that way. 
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2009, 04:24:12 AM »
I for one have spent a very many years learning to age my stuff and repeatedly control the look Im after...eventually I hope to get an aged type look thats more or less recognizable as mine and especially one that  pleases me as the artist. There is a bit more to it than just soaking metal in bleach, hitting leathers with lyes and acids, or as has been said, "dragging it behind a truck".... weather making a pristine new looking piece or an aged one, good professional results take a lot of time to perfect and master. So far Im lucky that other folks seem to like the look Im getting, which encourages and allows me to keep going....however, as a realist, I dont expect everyone, say a collector of fenton art glass for instance, to appreciate or ever be interested in collecting my junk, but I do sincerely hope that fellow makers and collectors of contemporary longrifles and accoutrements will at least appreciate my efforts, even if they do prefer the new look to my aged style. No matter what style we all work in, I'd venture to guess that we all hope more or less the same thing in that regard?
TCA 
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2009, 05:23:54 AM »
When I first got into the barrel business back in 1977, I spent a month in the Paris shop, learning the business.  It was
there that I was first introduced to the pristine, flawless reproduction rifles of Bob Ditchburn, Karl Pippert, Rudy Bahr, and
others........they really knocked my socks off, I never realized  they could be done that well.   Then I went to Friendship and met Jerry Kirklin, Hill Pearce, Jack Haugh, and a little later the great John Bivins.   Here I was, had built three guns to
that point, but nothing to even come close to the work of these guys.   Then in the mid 80's I met a guy by the name of
Bob Harn, whose handle was "clorox" Bob.  He may have been the one to start that crazy clorox thing, and it did hang around for quite a few years.  I am the proud owner of a Bob Harn rifle, has some clorox etching on it, not too much, and
some intentional dings, but also has some fabulous carving, to my way of thinking some of Bob's best carving.  Will have
this gun at Dixon's and the CLA, stop by and check it out.   In some ways, I think he started this whole antiquing thing,
had a lot of guys copying his work............Don

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2009, 07:10:11 AM »
What we're all missing here is that the the ability to antique something convincingly is an art in itself. Noboby that signs rifles or guns is trying to fool anyone. Even in the KRA we see rifles displayed by Jud Brennan, Allen Martin, and Eric K. 
Not only are they not fooled, but most can pick out the maker without looking at the signature.
When I used to enter rifles at Dixons, they would know perfectly well who made it even though there was tape over the signature. This is, in the good sense, the ultimate compliment.
My work is new made and has not changed a bit since then in concept except I do a little tarninshing of the brass and steel to take off the harsh new look. I think it just looks better and that is just me.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2009, 03:40:47 PM »
But what happens when the skilled "ager" has an original barrel he has found someplace, and an old lock?
And rather than making "his" rifle he copies an original close enough to be by the same maker.
Maybe he goes to some one who specializes in lumber from old buildings.
Casts the hardware from red brass.
Or the rifle, with his name or not is sold to someone as an original?
Saying its OK because its got a modern makers signature and the buyer is "stupid" does not lessen the fraud.
Its still fraud.
While this can occur with a rifle that is not "aged" its far easier if the seller don't have to age it.
This happens with horns and rifles and just about everything else.
But people just don't like to admit it.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2009, 07:39:21 PM »
There is no guarentee against ignorance or a fool. Once at the Reno engravers show a guy came up to the table of Robert Evens and asked him about a gun, that he was considering to buy. The gun was supposed to have been engraved by L.D. NIMSCHKE a famous 19th century engraver.  Robert told him it was not an original engraved by Nimschke.  The man then asked , well how do you know?  Robert said " because I engraved it.!  Guess what?  The guy went and bought the gun for an original anyway.
  The Moral of the story is this. To a fool the truth is whatever he wants.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aging question
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2009, 08:31:30 PM »
There is no guarentee against ignorance or a fool. Once at the Reno engravers show a guy came up to the table of Robert Evens and asked him about a gun, that he was considering to buy. The gun was supposed to have been engraved by L.D. NIMSCHKE a famous 19th century engraver.  Robert told him it was not an original engraved by Nimschke.  The man then asked , well how do you know?  Robert said " because I engraved it.!  Guess what?  The guy went and bought the gun for an original anyway.
  The Moral of the story is this. To a fool the truth is whatever he wants.

The bottom line would be does someone want to "enable" illegal activity or inhibit it.
If the guy KNEW it was a newly engraved piece there is no fraud. For all we know he had a sucker all lined up...
But this *should* have been a lesson to Mr Evans. It is entirely possible this is not the first time this has occurred if he upgrades vintage guns with engraving that can be mistaken for work of the 19th century.
Upgrading vintage guns is another avenue to fraud. It enables.
I suspect that eveyone here has seen or heard of some sort of fraud involving old guns or accessories. If not they are newcomers or don't pay attention.

I do not feel that being an enabler for dishonorable activity is a good thing.
But its America people can do anything they want.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine