Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately

[tddeangelo]

Very interesting info.

Absent tow or a wasp nest, what are some typical forms of wadding acceptable for this? Will it hold in place while hunting, or is there a chance of things shifting?

[JCKelly]

No good experience to relate, but this subject was covered in some depth 2010 and 2009. Daryl Sapergia and Dan Phariss sounded best to me.  July 2009 Canute discussed aerodyamics (golf ball dimples) in a rational manner.

Interests me, for as my dementia strengthens I am acquiring the urge to get a Pedersoli flint trade gun.   
                   
Squirrelly lock, but as some of you may recall I am impressed with barrels of honest-to-gosh Real Steel, rather than screw stock.

[smylee grouch]

So I'm curious how much velocity is lost when shooting naked compared to with diapers or patched ball. Has any one run these loads over a chronograph to see the velocity difference.

[WadePatton]

No good experience to relate, but this subject was covered in some depth 2010 and 2009. Daryl Sapergia and Dan Phariss sounded best to me.  July 2009 Canute discussed aerodyamics (golf ball dimples) in a rational manner.


... with barrels of honest-to-gosh Real Steel, rather than screw stock.

Ed Rayl uses a different alloy than most of the folks making our bbls.  Also some folks have reversed dementia with diet.  I might look up those old threads, thanks.

[alacran]

No good experience to relate, but this subject was covered in some depth 2010 and 2009. Daryl Sapergia and Dan Phariss sounded best to me.  J
When did Taylor adopt Daryl?

[Mattox Forge]

Thanks for the insights. The bare ball on top of the powder makes a lot of sense. I wonder if the dimpling, or chewing effect is more effective because the bullet is forced to be more spherical by the chewing process. The gas flow theory has a lot of merit.

Mike

[Hungry Horse]

 I’ve always suspected that the small dents in the ball give the charge something to push against on the rear of the ball. The cone of gas keeps it centered. I think the undimpled balls tend to be more likely to rotate in the bore, making them more likely to contact the barrel, and stray off target on exiting the barrel. It an opinion, just like belly buttons, everybodies got one.

Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

I was going to do a test of all of this, compared to patched balls last summer, but stuff got in the way.

[smylee grouch]

That would be a good test, especially if you clocked a naked ball vs one with patch in tow. Naked smooth vs naked dimpled. And any other combo you could think of. Same gun and load otherwise.

[hanshi]

Never actually tested velocity difference of prb vs bare ball.  But I did run across some figures I recorded after various range visits with a .62 smoothbore.  While the figures don't tell very much they do suggest how much difference there can be.

A patched .600" ball over 70 grains of 3F yielded an ave. of 1368 fps.

An unpatched .600" ball loaded with 70 grains of 3F, an op wad and an os card wad gave 1286 fps.  [60 grns gave 1117 fps]

I'm sure results will vary with other wad substitutions and loading habits.

[smylee grouch]

Interesting info. Not as much difference as I would have thought. Did you note much accuracy difference between those two loads.

[John SMOthermon]

It's been told to me that a 28 GA is more accurate than larger calibers?
Is there truth in it?

That's is what I've heard as well.

I think that come from people saying that a .54 cal ball performs better in cross winds.

As to the truth of the matter,I'm not sure.

But I do shoot a .54 cal rifle ,my smoothbore is a little larger.

[Hungry Horse]

 Hanshi, for your information the bare ball load that I use and is recommended by some who shoot in international competition, uses 2F or courser powder, usually about a hundred grains, no nitro, or cushion  wads of any kind, and just hornets nest, or tow, to hold the ball in place. Adding wads, and nitro cards, interferes with the cone of gas that centers the ball.
 I think tighter patterns are common in smaller bore smoothbores, but the string is longer, which mean your lead will need to be increased.
 I have not heard that smaller smoothbores shoot round balls more accurately than bigger ones. They should shoot flatter than a larger, heavier ball, but probably will lose their velocity quicker being lighter.

  Hungry Horse

[John SMOthermon]

My gun .653 bore shoots an unpatched .648 ball better than any patched ball combo I’ve tried.
I use a damp 1/2” cushion wad, on top of the ball ....

This helps hold the ball against the powder charge , plus using One Shot to dampen the wad helps keep the fouling build up manageable.
Blue windshield washer fluid and Murphy’s Oil soap works well too...
FYI
I switch too Olive Oil on the wads for my hunting load.

IMHO
Knurled balls and Dimpled balls are different, knurling raises the exterior surface as the rasp teeth pullout of the lead.  In theory helping center the ball in the bore. 

Dimpling simply creates dimples , which as I understand catches wind.
As spoken about already, it can cause a draw or fade on a Golf ball and it helps the aerodynamics by creating lift.

All of these effects are created by a force, the club coming to the ball at different angles, which is not the case when a ball is being shot from a gun.
 
In my thinking one could use a smaller ball size if knurling vs dimpleling.
Again, assuming it enlarges it .... somewhat.

I choose too shoot dimpled balls, my reasoning being that it eliminates the sprue created on my home cast ball .

I tend too use less powder than most other bare ball shooters too seems,
I use 70 grns of ffg which I’ve been told out of a 44” barrel shooting a .648 bare ball should have a mv around 900 FPS.
Which sounds reasonable compared too Hanshi’s figures show above.
 
That load doesn’t beat you to death and kills paper and steel quickly & cleanly.

I haven’t killed a deer with the load yet, but I have no doubt that it will do the job at 60 yards or less.

Wasp or Hornets nest, cedar bark are other options for wading... in a pinch .

[tddeangelo]

God help me for starting THIS question here, but.....

In my rifles, I load sprue up.

In a smoothie, might it be of benefit for the sprue to be the trailing surface of the ball so as not to induce drag/spin?

I'm overthinking it, aren't I?

[Daniel Coats]

Sprue up or down could make a difference and I load sprue up so I can see where it is. Makes me feel more in control I guess!

I think this is a fascinating thread and I've read it several times. I've also read about golf ball dimples and found there are strict requirements as to the size, weight, and even the number of dimples allowed. Trying not to make this harder than it needs to be but it seems a term we use in aerospace machining where I work called tolerance stack up comes to mind. This means the more things you measure the more each one adds to the total variance in the end result. In other words one thing like sprue up or down doesn't mean as much as several things like also checking ball diameter powder charge patch or no patch etc. Duh right? My question for those who shoot a ton more than I do is if it's worth checking even more variables like weighing each ball, weighing powder charges etc? How much is enough in eliminating or at least measuring variables?

Dan

[WadePatton]

It's been told to me that a 28 GA is more accurate than larger calibers?
Is there truth in it?

That's is what I've heard as well.

I think that come from people saying that a .54 cal ball performs better in cross winds.

As to the truth of the matter,I'm not sure.

But I do shoot a .54 cal rifle ,my smoothbore is a little larger.

I think guys tend to drive little balls faster than big balls, which decreases time-of-flight (over modest ranges) which pretty well determines amount of drift, secondarily to crosswind angle and speed of course.  IOW, push a bigger ball to the same velocity as a smaller one, and the big ball will drift the same as the small one, up until it is traveling faster-as the smaller ball slows down quicker- after which the big ball drifts less.  But I've not done any field work to prove it.

[John SMOthermon]

I think you're onto something Wade, but my understanding is that the weight and size of the .54 cal ball tends to be optimal for performance in windy conditions... especially in  cross winds.

But as you said "over modest ranges", I'm not sure that's the case at greater distances.
However we are talking smooth bore guns here, so without the aid of rifling things are different.

My testing with the bare ball load has only been limited to 25 yards or less, but I was well Pleased with the results at 25 compared too a patched ball..

However due to the limited availability of ball sizes on the market this could contribute to the poor performance of my patched ball loads..

I've tested .610 and .626 with a patch , both performed poorly..

Interesting enough however a .642 ball shoots just as well bare as the .648...at 25 yards.

More testing too come.

[Maven]

"I think guys tend to drive little balls faster than big balls, which decreases time-of-flight (over modest ranges) which pretty well determines amount of drift, secondarily to crosswind angle and speed of course."  ...WadePatton

That may be why Duelist1954 (the guy in the video in post #11) uses 110gr. FFg in his 20ga. smoothbore loads.  Btw, his video and article about tow loads in his smoothbore in Muzzleloader a few years ago are worth a look.*


*Duelist1954 = Mike Beliveau

[WadePatton]

"Over modest ranges" means that up until the small ball is passed up by the big ball which carries further for a given muzzle velocity.  The bigger ball is capable of carrying more energy if the shooter puts enough charge behind it.

Cannon balls go further than musket balls. Bigger cannons shoot further than littler cannons.  This is my take on the "optimum ball size notion" that one must figure in the practical velocities involved to make valid comparisons. In our shoulder-mounted arms there are limits to how fast most folks want to launch heavier balls, but if you can take the pounding and develop a good load to match smaller ball velocities, I'd expect bigger to win every contest of drift and distance.  And there are limits as to how fast you can get a PRB or (naked Pb ball) going I'm sure. 

So "optimum" notions of long standing may well be based on the practicality of average velocities achieved by regular shooters, but as a "rule of science" I say bigger wins.

until it comes time to replenish your stores of Pb and powder.

[Daryl]

In the late 1700's, into about 1820 or so, the issue paper ctg. load for the .69 calibre US military muskets was 165gr. powder, which included the "prime".
With advancements in powder quality, this was reduced to 135gr. powder & an increase to .65" for the ball from the previous .64".
Just FYI.

Also - a 32 pounder cannon has a longer accuracy range than a 12 or 6 pounder cannon.
The larger ball has a longer accuracy range than the smaller ball.

[Bob McBride]

That would be a good test, especially if you clocked a naked ball vs one with patch in tow. Naked smooth vs naked dimpled. And any other combo you could think of. Same gun and load otherwise.

I'll run that test in the next week or so on my youtube channel. I just picked up a Caldwell G2 Chrono for load testing segments and think that's a great first chrono video idea.I put it first on the list for after the Alabama Kentucky Show. I'll put the link here when I do it.

[hanshi]

I get better and more consistent accuracy with prb than bare ball at 50 yards.  With a prb three shot groups average slightly under 3" at that distance.  I have never tested with a bare ball loaded directly onto the powder charge.  But BB loads using wool/fiber wads, card wads, hornet nest, etc, shoot pretty well at 50 yards.  That means all shots easily on a paper plate and from around 4" to 6" which will take down deer.  The main problem I've had with BB, regardless of wad type, is that it is less consistent than prb loads.  A flyer appears to ruin the group more often than with prb loads. 

Up to around 25-30 yards I'd feel comfortable with a "ball-on-powder" load.  Up to around 60 yards I'd trust a naked ball loaded with wads.  This is why I feel that three shot groups at 50 yds and farther tell me what I need to know to be ready for the woods.  Never have I ever fired more than three shots, excluding small game, in the woods; and then it was only one shot per deer for a morning triple.  Also, with a smoothbore I prefer the 20ga for the excellent ball size and generous shot loads.

[Daryl]

No good experience to relate, but this subject was covered in some depth 2010 and 2009. Daryl Sapergia and Dan Phariss sounded best to me.  J
When did Taylor adopt Daryl?

May 22, 1950

[Jerry]

Seems, the higher the velocity, the further out the ball gets before it takes on a spin (from it's air passage) and veers off it's intended path.
Taylor's suggestion of balls and patches are good ones, imho.

Daryl, What would you consider a high enough load for 20 gauge smoothbore to stabilize the round ball. Thanks, Jerry