Author Topic: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately  (Read 9555 times)

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2020, 10:38:08 PM »
Jerry - I shoot 85gr. 2F in my smoothbore with patched round ball, for targets out to about 60yards. I know this gives about 1,200fps to 1,300fps velocity. For shooting the longer 100and 110yard shots on our trail, I use 100gr. 2F.  This works - sometimes.  That is, sometimes I hit but more often, I miss the long shots.
I do not know the answer to your question, about stability. A ball that is launched from a smoothbore, is not stable, as there is no rifling to impart a stabilizing rotation to the ball.
What happens, is sooner or later, the ball will take on a spin and veer off it's intended path.
I have seen this, in binoculars when one of the guys was shooting. The ball arcing towards the gong at 100or so yards, then just before getting there, seemingly in the last 20 (looks closer) or so yards, veering hard off to the left, right or down & missing by 3 or 4 feet. I've only observed this a few times, but when I did, the ball never climbed, only veered left, right or a combination with down. This veering happened with one particular fellow who shot 65gr. 2F in his 20 bore guns.
I fully suspect 120gr. 2F would likely work better, but have not tested that myself.
The higher velocity shooting guys, like Taylor (85gr. 2F I think in his 42" bl.) and Norm who uses 85gr. 3F in his 42" bl., the ball does not veer, but arcs to the target. I have not witnessed as many of the higher speed shots.
I think, now this is just an impression, that increasing my charge to 100gr. 2F from 85gr. 2F, gives me more hits on the longer range gongs.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 10:49:00 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2020, 10:59:43 PM »
Further to this, one year at Hefley, in a downpour, a smoothbore match was held. (I stayed dry) The longest shot was about 145 yards. The only guy who hit it,
told me after that contest, that he had taken my advice and used 150gr. of 2F (I'd suggested 110iirc), instead of his normal 75gr. charge He aimed right at the
target and hit. Luck?
Yes, I assume, but if you are a good shot (his smoothbore scores usually beat most of the rifle scores on the trails) and hold your tongue just right, you will have more
long range hits with your smoothbore, than the person who isn't & doesn't.
One of these days on our trail, I am going to duplicate our own 'best smoothbore shot" Norm, who only has that one 20bore gun and uses cotton patches, a .595"
pure lead ball and 85gr. 3F GOEX in his 42" bl.  Now, that guy rarely misses & our rifle trail is a tough one, with lots of smallish targets at 60 to 110yards. Yes
there are some large targets, like a goose and turkey, but we also have a 100yard bunny, I've seen him hit more often than not.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 10:35:00 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2020, 05:37:00 AM »
Further to this...
there are some large targets, like a goose and turkey, but we also have a 100yard fox bunny, I've seen him hit more often than not.

Okay I was with you all the way up to near the end and you derailed me with "fox bunny".   Not just that but a male type one of thems... ???

well, we do have fox squirrels--now that I think about it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 06:06:15 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2020, 12:09:41 AM »
LOL no fox bunnys? - typo - we have both fox and bunny targets out around 100yards.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bull Shannon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2020, 01:06:45 PM »
I'll put in my two cents and be done. In my experience shooting smoothbores is that some are as accurate as a rifle and some are not. I've gotten bullseye at under 50 yards as well as some "where the heck did that go?" results, but usually each barrel follows the same pattern. I can't explain that but my experience is limited in that regard. Now, as to why heavier powder charges seem to increase accuracy at longer distances I think can be explained by how a projectile is affected when it goes below the speed of sound, crossing the trans-sonic range. We already know that spin increases accuracy by imparting stability during flight. We also know that the elongated shape of modern bullets allows greater accuracy at longer ranges and higher velocities because of modern propellants. The use of carefully designed bullets increases accuracy even more because of how the end of the projectile is shaped. That is because in addition to spin, we also know that when the bullet slows to below the speed of sound that the shock wave that is created by the tip is no longer creating a vacuum behind the bullet itself and the turbulent air is now in contact with end of the projectile. Boat tail bullets, flat ends, all lesson the effect of that turbulent air. A round ball is about the worst aerodynamic shape outside of a brick to have and when  it goes below supersonic it is greatly affected by the suddenly turbulent air at its backside. Because the smooth bore barrel imparts no spin to the ball, any deviation in its path results in exposing the side of the ball that is pushing through the air to have to travel farther. That alone means a loss in velocity but it also means that the trip through the trans-sonic window comes sooner, meaning more deviation off course.
Think of it this way. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. As soon as you deviate from that straight line you increase the distance, right? So at the velocity we launch a projectile we know that the bullet is subject to wind resistance, which decreases velocity. Natural, right? So if we increase the distance the ball has to travel, no matter how small, then we increase the amount of time the resistance occurs, which the decreases velocity. Once velocity is decreased to just under the speed of sound the turbulence of the shock wave acting on the trailing surface of the round ball increases substaintialy. Thus the observation of the ball veering to the left of right some twenty yards before the target is explained. The ball goes below the speed of sound about 20 yards before reaching the target and becomes even more unstable. Increase the powder charge, raise the velocity and the ball is more accurate, relatively speaking.

Please feel free to comment and let me know if I'm on the right track, way off base or just plain crazy; I'm here to learn.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 04:20:53 PM by Bull Shannon »
You can't kill a man who is born to hang!

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2020, 03:23:22 PM »
Thank you Bull Shannon. I'll put my two cents in with yours. If you start a ball at supersonic speed it must be at a high enough velocity to stay at supersonic speed all the way to the target.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Bull Shannon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2020, 04:21:52 PM »
Thank you Bull Shannon. I'll put my two cents in with yours. If you start a ball at supersonic speed it must be at a high enough velocity to stay at supersonic speed all the way to the target.
Very good, thank you for adding that.
You can't kill a man who is born to hang!

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2020, 05:56:07 PM »
I'll put in my two cents ... crossing the trans-sonic range...
Please feel free to comment and let me know if I'm on the right track, way off base or just plain crazy; I'm here to learn.

Works for me. thanks.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2020, 09:23:56 PM »
Actually, that 65gr. 2F charge that Ross used, was likely sub-sonic all the way to the fox target. The ball veering off in the last bit likely had nothing to do with it
going transonic.
Projectiles passing through the sonic and transonic zones, do experience extra turbulence.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2020, 09:38:48 PM »
Sounds as though I need to post my chrono right in front of the target, see just how fast the ball is going then.  Of course, I think I would NOT put the chrono box in the firing line - get a longer cord for the screens.

Speed of sound at sea level is roughly 1,000 FPS.  Do you think your 1300 FPS at the muzzle will drop to below the sound speed?  Sure be interesting to find out.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2020, 03:52:57 AM »
SOS is closer to 1080fps, I thought, although I have seen much higher speeds listed as in over 1,100fps given for the SOS.
The round ball started at 1,300fps most assuredly drops below the speed of sound in the first 50 to 70 or so yards
according to most ballistic charts. The round ball is a very poor ballistic shape, however, once it is traveling sub-sonic,
it's rate of slowing, is very much reduced.

 Take for instance a .562" ball in Lyman's chart.
Starting at an even higher 1,400fps, it is traveling at a mere 1,087fps at 50yards, 994fps at 75yards and 916 at 100, yet in the next
100yard, it loses only 204fps to 712fps.  It lost 484fps in the first 100yards of travel, but only 204fps in the next 100yards. 
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline JEH

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 91
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2020, 04:37:14 AM »
My two cents on the subject I have a .62 smooth rifle I was working up a load for. FFg an 1/8" card wad followed by a 1/2" cushion wad and just a thin enough patch to keep the ball on the load. 6 inch on average at 50 yards. On a whim I loaded it with the same charge of FFFg I think 90 grains and the group went to 2 inch or less! Have always used FFg on anything 50 cal or larger in the 40 years I have of playing with these things. Part of the fun.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: Best practice for shooting smoothbores accurately
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2020, 10:12:11 PM »
Impressive. 2" at 50 yards is better than many guys with rifles do. Well done.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 10:41:02 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V