Pig hide for possible bags

[oldtravler61]

  Question for the experts. How H.C. correct is pig hide for bags.
 I have some an way going to try my hand at making a few bags
With it... Know nothing about giving it an aging look either.
Thanks in advance...
  Oldtravler

[James Rogers]

Saddlers would have certainly had access to pig. It was used  for saddle seats as it is hard wearing, thin and breathable. I use vegetable tanned pig as a quality thin lining on some items. What tannage is your pighide?

[flinchrocket]

Isn't the bag on the cover of Madison Grants book made from pigskin?

[Brokennock]

I believe one of the more prominent researchers on one of the other forums found documentation for pig hide shot pouches. I'm assuming that is what you are asking about, not sure about "possibles bag."
This is made of pig hide leather, I think it was oil tanned,











The last pic is a water test, water is beaded and not soaking in, and this is before I added any mink oil or beeswax.
The only negatives I found working with it were, A. marks for stitching placement get lost easily amongst the pores, and B. I found it too stretchy to trust on it's own for the strap, thus the fabric backing on the strap.

[thecapgunkid]

Go for it.  Let's see...there were lots of farmers, woodsrunners and no shortage of pigs, so guess what...There is no reason to assume that nobody on a farm or in the bush made one of piggy.

My advice would be to keep an eye on this post and ones like it and thereby make a simple bag with a more rustic appearance that implies moderate wealth rather than a museum piece that should have been made of a different leather.

Brokennock's example just about speaks to you about its place ( I wish it could talk) and some one like Sligo Bill has more than enough styles in his inventory of posts that you will come up with something.

Maybe make a football?

[flinchrocket]

Brokennock, it could depend on the way it's cut whether it stretches or not.

[Marcruger]

I figure there were lots of pigs about, and like today, little was wasted but the squeal. 

This one I laminated onto a suede cowhide liner for strength and to minimize stretch.  Strap is obviously bovine.  Don't think I'd use pig for the strap.  The finishing certainly made me learn a few new tricks versus cow. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Frank Barker]

Since Cincinnati was known back in the day as Porkopolis and lots of those pigs were herded from the Appalachia region it just stands to reason. Tons of pig hides and with that many hides you know there was lots of things made from them. I am in the process of making a double pouch from 2 to 3 oz pig and that is some tough skin. I don't recall seeing any pouches that were made from pig but I never was looking for any, I just assumed they were. Jim Webb, who is a collector of Appalachian pouches could surly answer this question or possibly Tim Albert has run across information on this subject. Pig hide was readily available, tough and could be oak tanned, oil tanned, chemical tanned or maybe even brain tanned. I don't think that the only thing made of pig hide was footballs, surely hunting pouches were also manufactured from it.

Kind Regards
Frank Barker

[James Rogers]

I dont think footballs were ever made of pigskin. That nickname comes from the use of the bladders of pigs IIRC

[EricEwing]

I’m going to offer the opposite opinion. It is my opinion that pig leather was rarely used before the age of commercial tanning (1850’s?).

I follow the work of many people who tan all types of leather in small quantities who share their work and processes on social media. I have made contact with many of them regarding their methods and progress and results. Right now there is bit of a bark and brain tanning renaissance occurring amongst younger people across the country and first world. The methods are traditional and primitive and absent any commercial facilities. Basically hippies skinning, scraping and stretching in their own backyards and homesteads. I have been trying to obtain a bark tanned pig hide from several tanners for what is now going on a few years and it has yet to happen. It’s not due to lack of access to pig hides, in fact one of them has one in the freezer. The problem is pig hide is incredibly greasy and difficult to tan using traditional methods. Not impossible, but far more difficult and with far more unpredictable results than cow or goat or deer or sheep. Any of the tanners I know who have done it have not been eager to repeat it.

Just because Americans before 1850 had plenty of pigs doesn’t automatically mean they made bags out of their skins. Even in modern times pig leather is far more suited to components of garments or trim leather than anything like a shoulder bag. I also note that of all the antique bags that I have seen I don’t think one has ever been made from pig hide with the obvious dimples of that hide. Almost all of the ones I have seen were either cattle or deer leather.

If someone produces a reference to a use of pig hide for any purpose before 1850 or so it would be cool to see what it says about the topic.

On the other hand, we have now access to modern tanning processes of several types and pig leather is fun to work with and looks cool and can sometimes be found thick enough to use for a bag and if not makes an awesome component for details. So rock on with the swine if you choose!

[James Rogers]

I concur with Eric in that I've never seen a homemade American bag from pigskin that I can recall. Thats not to say there weren't any. There are however several pigskin sporrans surviving that are estimated to be 17th and  18th century. I am not sure of the provenance of any of them so I cant argue or agree with the dating but the ones I have seen certainly hail to the 18th images I have seen.

Pigskin though was most certainly used in the 18th century for books, saddle seats, bindings, linings and on many items as a covering such as trunks, containers.  From original items I have examined, the hides used were of course like the other types of hides used in professional manufacture in that they were smooth and well done. Due to the fact pigskin saw a lot of usage in pro made items and also the fact that many of the original bags I have examined seem to have been made from leather re-used from pro made items such as seat covers, boots, etc. it would not surprise me in the least to find a bag made of pigskin. Of course the bags of reclaimed leather I have examined were at the most 19th century and later.

I also want to add as a sidenote that professional tanyards existed early on and professionally tanned hides were available. There was a tanyard down the road from me here in Appomattox that was running at least as far back as the late 18th century.  I have a business note from my 4th grt grandfather to the tanner requesting a tannage of the raw hides he was delivering to be appropriate for making negro shoes. I say that not to suggest pigskin was being produced there but to add a little local history. Little tidbits of glimpses into the past drives me each day in the shop.

[thecapgunkid]

When you get there, there you are.  Please be sure and post again in about ten years to let us know how well your pigskin bags held up.

If there's one lesson I've learned about leather throughout history, it's that the weaker materials don't survive well.

[DougS]

Hello to All,

I have a bark tanned pig skin hunting pouch made by Jack Hubbard.

There is a picture and reference for a pig skin hunting pouch in Madison Grant's book. See page 17, plate 5.

I love it, it has a great look and is very strong. It is also nice and thick. (see pics) This is NOT the factory tanned, almost suede pig skin we are used to seeing.

I talked to Jack regarding tanning the pig hide. Jack said he only tanned the one hide. He said it was very greasy and messy to work with.

I even tried to tan one myself and ended up throwing it out. I did learn some about working with a pig skin and will try again in the future, just (NOT in the summer) for sure.

Regards,

Doug


upload images

[Brokennock]

I know I have seen period references to pig hide shot pouches. I will try to find them, it will take a while.

There is nothing thin or weak about the hide I made my bag out of. The tag, item number and squ is pictured if you want to investigate the material. It is stretchy in one direction more than others, but, is very strong. It is not as stretchy/saggy as buckskin, not need to line  the bag with anything.
I am very impressed with how weather/water resistant it is, I thought the visually obvious pores would cause it to leak.

[James Rogers]

Much stronger than deerhide

[thecapgunkid]

This is turning out to be a very interesting post, and several guys are showing their talents.

The only thing I ever took out of a pig were the bristles.  After going through Grants book and finding a sample bag, and after reading Brokkennocks post, I am glad I took My Masters Advice the second week into my training;

Cut from the belly to get supple stretching, the sides and shoulders to get reliable firmness, and the back to get soles and dense weight.

[James Rogers]

Hello to All,



There is a picture and reference for a pig skin hunting pouch in Madison Grant's book. See page 17, plate 5.

Forgot about that bag in Grant's book. I am going to assume its post 1850

[T.C.Albert]

When a hog is traditionally butchered
Is it actually skinned? I believe it’s more
Like quartered after scalding and scraping
So the hide is already in smaller pieces. Then
The fat etc was rendered and cracklings made from
Slices of skin and scraps While the hams, belly and
 loins were cut and cured.

Maybe once the big midwestern hog drives to
Chicago or as mentioned Cincinnati began some
Special market for pig hide especially developed
But I don’t know anything about that. Great topic.
TC

[EricEwing]

James,
You made some good points in your earlier post.  I have to amend my opinion to say that I don't believe pig hides were commonly tanned in home settings or used in homemade bags, but agree that early commercial tanneries existed in America and Europe and pig hide was used by professional leatherworkers.

Hello to All,



There is a picture and reference for a pig skin hunting pouch in Madison Grant's book. See page 17, plate 5.

Forgot about that bag in Grant's book. I am going to assume its post 1850

I love that book but yes...don't take anything in it as a basis for anything but entertainment, with all respect to Madison Grant.

[EricEwing]

I am very impressed with how weather/water resistant it is, I thought the visually obvious pores would cause it to leak.

That is more of a function of the fact that it is oil-tanned vs. the animal it came from I think.

[EricEwing]

When a hog is traditionally butchered
Is it actually skinned? I believe it’s more
Like quartered after scalding and scraping
So the hide is already in smaller pieces. Then
The fat etc was rendered and cracklings made from
Slices of skin and scraps While the hams, belly and
 loins were cut and cured.

Maybe once the big midwestern hog drives to
Chicago or as mentioned Cincinnati began some
Special market for pig hide especially developed
But I don’t know anything about that. Great topic.
TC

That is another great point! And yes this a really cool topic.

[Brokennock]

I am very impressed with how weather/water resistant it is, I thought the visually obvious pores would cause it to leak.

That is more of a function of the fact that it is oil-tanned vs. the animal it came from I think.

I agree. But I was still surprised and impressed. I find it much tougher than it is being made out to be, and nice to work with, other than loosing track of my stitching wheel Mark's amongst the pores.

Still looking as I have time now and then for my references to original pig hide bags..... I need a better system for saving and finding this stuff.

[JohnnyFM]

I made a pigskin vegetable/oak tanned shooting pouch.  I use it and it is fully serviceable today.  Oh, I made it about 20 years ago.  About 2oz leather.  No lining. Sewed with a back stitch inside out. At the time I felt the flap was a bit too “floppy” so I doubled up on the leather.  Don’t know if I would feel the need to do that now.  It is  approximately 8x7 , 3 piece design. Body, flap and skirting or apron attaching the flap to the body.  Sewn with linen thread.

I stained/dyed it in iron nitrate or whatever it’s called that Eric Kettenburgh used to make.  Turned it a purple gray.  When it dried I “curried” it with 100% neats foot oil.  Nice rich chocolate brown.

Lightweight and strong. I say this pouch with normal accoutrements including a handful a lead roundball weighs what some cowhide pouches weigh empty.  It was the first pouch I made.  I like lightweight leather for shooting bags.
Got some nice veg tanned goat I want to try if and when I get the time.

Tanning animal skins was, for the most part, left to the professionals. It required a certain level of knowledge and skill as well as the fact that it stunk like shite.  It was also an extremely time intensive process—up to 18 mos.  in other words a full time job.

Here’s a short quote from the National Park Servive website in re Tanning leather at Jamestown:
“ Cattle, swine, sheep and goats provided most of the hide commonly worked.“  The info they have on the site comes mostly from Didierot.

Perhaps it may be more of a challenge to prove all this backwoods homespun do it yourself bark tanning that seems to be all the rage.  Oh and while I go through all this trouble of tanning my own deer hides let me leave a quarter of the hair on in scraggly patches just to give it more of that homespun lazy look too.  Longhunters took a ton of deer hides, literally, to the pros to do that tanning thing that they do.

Other’s mileage may vary.

[RoaringBull]

Got some nice veg tanned goat I want to try if and when I get the time.

Ive used some veg tan goat and find that its every bit as strong as cow, if not more so. Makes a nice lightweight bag.

[draken]

Aside from my very first pair of leggings a long time ago, I have next to no experience with pig skin.  But, it seems to me that the stretching issue could be addressed in the same manner as commercially tanned deer skin.   Soak the skin in water until  totally saturated, wring out the excess water and staple it to a sheet of plywood or similar construction material.  Starting at one end we'll call the top, stretch and anchor that end
wistaples 11/2-2 inches apart.   Repeat the process at the other end and then (this part is easier with an extra pair of hands ) stretch the sides out, starting at the center and anchoring in place  alternating left and rigtht edges with  staples 11/2-2 inches apart.  Repeat the process on the opposite edge and continue stretching and stapling on alternating SIDES toward the top end (again, this is easier with a helper and an extra stapler) When you reach the top repeat the process starting at the center and working down to other end.  Let it dry for as many days as it takes for all the moisture to evaporate before removing all those staples.

What you have done is stretched the skin to its maximum and dried it to a size that will neither shrink nor stretch out of shape