Author Topic: 20 GA English Fowler  (Read 7994 times)

Offline Kingsburyarms

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20 GA English Fowler
« on: January 11, 2020, 07:48:03 PM »
All, I started my 20 gauge English Fowler a few weeks ago. With the extremely kind advise and drawings from Dave Person, I am building this from an Black Walnut blank (Thought you might like that Mike) Dave's drawings are perfect for the use of shaping the stock, I have Silver mounts designed and molds provided by Jim Kibler. I had the silver poured from my own source, and ready to put this together. Chambers Lock, 20 GA all round barrel.

I will use some Silver wire inlay, and use all the information I can to stay as accurate as possible. More to follow on this build, and with the help of Dave, I'm sure it will fit into the "gentleman's Fowler" category. (Yes Dave, I need to get the drawings back to you... :)_ on my last visit with Dave Person, I took hundreds of pictures of his rifles (Original and Person made) and his work, his research and his attention to detail is unmatched.


















Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2020, 08:23:21 PM »
This is going to be a great thread...I enjoy seeing builds like this go together.

I see your paper drawing on the wood.  If I may make a suggestion, do not cut the vertical line at the breech end of the barrel.  That would be fine for the lock side but for the counterplate side, you need a radius rather than a vertical cut.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Justin Urbantas

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2020, 08:23:50 PM »
What are you doing for the breech?

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2020, 09:01:36 PM »
This is going to be a great thread...I enjoy seeing builds like this go together.

I see your paper drawing on the wood.  If I may make a suggestion, do not cut the vertical line at the breech end of the barrel.  That would be fine for the lock side but for the counter plate side, you need a radius rather than a vertical cut.

Agreed! - That is to position the pattern on the wood for grain and alignment - I have already cut the stock and inlet the barrel - the Breach is a plug and tang - Pictures to follow -

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2020, 09:15:45 PM »
Sorry for the picture quality - had to go back to my phone to take them - new camera is in the works.... Barrel, Breach and roughed stock, still has a bunch of rasp marks on it - - - Started lock inlet (Very rough with plate only) -








Offline bob hertrich

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2020, 09:19:22 PM »
I am planing to build an English fowler as my next gun. Are Dave's plans available to the general public.

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2020, 09:40:28 PM »
Bob, I'm not sure - but I believe Dave will follow along, and possibly provide some insight?...

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2020, 10:21:05 PM »
Jon, I DO wish that my butt plates would come out of the mold all trimmed and engraved!  Maybe in my next life.

Dave is a very talented guy, and very generous.  Quite a wizard at long rifle building.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 12:37:31 AM by Craig Wilcox »
Craig Wilcox
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Offline bob hertrich

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2020, 10:41:22 PM »
Would you have an email address so I could contact him.

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2020, 10:49:24 PM »
Bob,

Dave is aka Smart Dog here.  You can send him a PM.  I don't have his email addy.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline bob hertrich

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2020, 11:17:06 PM »
That's great, thanks.

Offline smart dog

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2020, 01:45:24 AM »
Hi Jon,
Thanks for the kind words and best of luck with the project.  I am sure it will be spectacular.  Your castings look great.  Folks should visit Jim Kibler's web site and look at the fowler he built using that silver hardware. It is definitely one of the best modern-made English fowlers ever built.

Bob Hertrich,
Jon has all my fowler drawings.  I will need my tube back fairly soon Jon because my Peter Berry drawings are in there too.  However, you don't need to wait, Bob.  Go to the link below:
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48844.0

I include my drawings of 2 original English fowlers with all the detailed dimensions.  You should be able to design your own fowler from those drawings and dimensions quite easily.  Moreover, the multi-part tutorials "Understanding the British Fowler" and "Building an Historically Correct English Fowler" in our Tutorial section (Miscellaneous Tutorials) contain a wealth of detailed information about those guns. I hope anyone thinking of building an English fowler reads those tutorials first.   

dave
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Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2020, 02:05:33 AM »
PM Sent - ..... I needed to send them a long time ago... I apologize.. Too enchanted by them -

Offline smart dog

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2020, 03:23:02 AM »
Hi Jon,
Be careful with the corner of the stock on the side plate side.  Don't make that concave at the top.  It should be a convex radius like the following.

dave













"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2020, 08:49:04 PM »
Thank you  - I do have enough wood to round - I went too much "Lancaster" on it - but it's recoverable, another question for all - Barrel keys or pins?  - and should it have barrel bands or just a key slot?  - Everything I'm reading and have images of uses keys.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2020, 08:57:07 PM »
As a rough guide, keys go with a hooked breech,  and pins when no break -off fitted.

I do like the barrel, who makes it?    Looking on with interest!

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2020, 08:59:38 PM »
Perfect - Thank you for the guide... it's a Rice 20 Gauge all round with a flat for the touch hole/lock. small wedding band on the Breach, no sights - I'll have to figure that one out.

Offline Adrie luke

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2020, 10:17:39 PM »
Jon,

I like the Fowling guns. Here a link and a picture with a silver barrel band.
Success with the building!

Adrie


https://www.icollector.com/Fine-quality-Italian-flintlock-fowling-piece-with-silver-mountings-and-full-stocked-to-the-muzzle_i20437253



Offline smart dog

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2020, 11:04:54 PM »
Hi Jon,
I think a high end British fowler from that period with out a standing breech (hook and tang) and with pins holding the barrel would be pretty rare.  Military, trade, and livery guns, yes but not first class sporting guns.  Standing breeches are not hard to inlet, just solder or glue the tang on to the hook in the barrel and inlet the whole thing like you do a barrel tang. I understand there is a supply problem buying them right now, however, The Rifle Shoppe has several kinds that are correct with the proper bottom lug for the cross pin and they seem to have worked out their shipping issues.  All of my last 3 orders, including complete parts for a pattern 1730 Brown Bess, arrived within 3 weeks of my phoned-in order.  I got a batch of hook tangs within 7 days.

If you are going to use the plain plug and tang then there really is no reason to use barrel keys.  The whole purpose of the keys and standing breech was easy barrel removal for cleaning.  With respect to inlet barrel bands, I used those on an English fowler because I simulated (as best I could) a Spanish barrel.  Italian and Spanish smooth bored barrels were considered the best in the world and London gunsmiths sometimes were reluctant to braze on barrel lugs because they were afraid the heat would destroy the shooting qualities of the thin walled barrels.  I've only seen those bands used on English guns with Spanish or Italian barrels and sometimes Turkish and Indonesian Damascus barrels.  Sometimes the bands were silver along with the mounts.  I would probably solder lugs on the bottom with your barrel.

dave     
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Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2020, 11:31:16 PM »
I should be taking more pictures - Trying to get some work done each night. Have the stock shaped out (trying to leave around a 1/16 of wood everywhere to leave room for shaping, carving and other changes that may (will) be needed, Having fun with this, although the Walnut is not as easy to work with as I would have expected, and the color and grain of the wood is fantastic.  I inletted the lock, set the butt plate and shaped that. (I am using a different plate than I was going to because a great thought jumped into my brain - more on that later). The round 20 gauge barrel is pinned and i'm shaping the for-stock now. Will need assistance on how exactly the transition of the front of the stock and the barrel are to be shaped.

Here are a few shots - again progress. Maybe I can bribe Dave Person to bring it up to his shop and he can give it a once over, and help me stay on track with the work...












Offline smart dog

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2020, 01:36:21 AM »
Hi Jon,
That looks really nice.  I think you have it down well.  The wood is beautiful.  The muzzle end of the stock varies on originals from just a simple gradual tapering and rounding up to the barrel, a simple rounding of the front up to the barrel, to a slight schnable.  The bulge or schnable is very, very subtle.  Some guys make a large bulge and completely wipe out the ramrod groove behind it such that you see daylight under the rod before the bulge.  IMO, that is really ugly and not very authentic or at least not typical of original British guns from the time.  To make a subtle schnable, I do the following.  I taper the sides of the ramrod channel down starting a bit in front of the forward ramrod thimble, (the forward end of which should be between 3 and no more than 5 inches from the muzzle).  You can do a gradual taper or a defined step but leave a little ramrod groove showing all the way to the end of the stock.  Don't take it down like you were installing a muzzle cap without a ramrod groove.  Then round the muzzle end up to the barrel and an inch or so back, file away the ramrod groove until only a hint of it remains. Don't eliminate the groove completely, leave a hint.  Doing this, you create a slight bulge at the muzzle, which should be rounded gracefully.  You may want to deepen and widen the ramrod groove through the bulge to accommodate a rod with swelled or flared tip.  I go as far as making a horn trumpet ramrod tip and tapered ramrod before finishing the muzzle end of the stock.  I then radius the curve of the end up to the barrel to match the curve of the trumpet ramrod tip.  This gives everything a nice tidy and professional look.  The photos below should give you some ideas. 
       










The Brits did not fuss much about these details.  They were not big on carved moldings along the ramrod channel or ornate decoration on the stock at the muzzle.  They just used simple but elegant designs.

dave
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Offline Daryl

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2020, 07:13:46 AM »
Jon- what a lovely piece of walnut for that gun. Well done. Gonna be soooo nice.
Daryl

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Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2020, 05:08:05 PM »
More work as I shape the stock, clean up all the File and wrasp marks and get to a final shape - still leaving enough for a clam shell and some inlays. I tried to keep a slight swell on the for-end grip near the entry thimble, I know it's quite pronounced on the military guns, but I thought it may have a slight place on a fowler.
























Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #23 on: February 29, 2020, 07:10:05 PM »
Jon, you are coming along well - and you have a great mentor,

I used to do a lot of work with silver, and generally enjoyed it.  That you used good molds, and did it at home is great!
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline Kingsburyarms

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Re: 20 GA English Fowler
« Reply #24 on: February 29, 2020, 07:26:00 PM »
Craig, the Butt plate is steel - I swapped it out for a couple of reasons, one is I wanted to engrave a different design, and I wanted it to be sturdy for loading and use. More to follow on the design -