Author Topic: question on a .32 percussion rifle (Read 5587 times)

borderdogs · « **on:** January 11, 2020, 11:23:52 PM »

Hi Guys,
I recently got a custom built .32 plains rifle and tried shooting it for the first time. I spent some time pulling the nipple and cleaning it and the barrel ran a few dry patches through it and then took it out and snapped a few caps. Then I started with a .315 ball and .010 patch over 35 grains of 3F powder. Shot the first round fine at a steel target 50 yards away. Hit the target square then tried another round after wiping the bore with a a patch with very little bore cleaner. Shot the other round fine same as the first. Then when trying a third just the cap went off. So I checked to see if the ball came out by putting a marked stick in and it was still in the barrel. So I pulled the nipple cleaned it reinstalled it and again just the cap. So I pulled the nipple cleaned it again reinstalled it and the same thing happened. So I pulled the nipple again dribbled some powder down the nipple hole knocking it in so it cleared the threads then put the nipple back in. Then capped it and it fired off fine. So then I pulled the barrel out of the rifle (love those hooked breaches!) cleaned it completely with hot water, etc ran a few dry patches down and set it up to fire a few more rounds. So then the first shot no problem, second, no problem then the third same thing happened again. So I had to do the same thing again that I did the first time around and got it cleared out then cleaned and put the rifle away.

So after all that I am perplexed about what is going on. Like I said I just got this rifle so I have no history with it yet nor am I experienced shooting .32. But I havent had this kind of problems right off the bat. So my questions to you guys is have any of you had this kind of problem, especially with small caliber rifles? To me it seems its either the percussion cap isnt hot enough or the vent in the nipple is too small for consistent ignition? or maybe a little of both?

Any ideas on this?
Thanks,
Rob

richs · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2020, 12:31:04 AM »

I have a 50 cal. Hawken full stock percussion, Green Mountain barrel. After snapping a cap, it shoots great but hates to be cleaned. Can fire 15 rounds in a row with great accuracy and then I run a damp patch and a dry patch through the bore. The gun misfires every time on the first cap after cleaning. When I clean between 15 round strings, I snap a cap after cleaning, then load. Shoots every time. Each gun is different and has its likes and dislikes. The idea of a hotter cap or opening the flash channel is a good idea.
Rich

Daniel Coats · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2020, 12:37:14 AM »

I had that same issue of misfires with a 54 caliber rifle one time. My rifle simply did not like a particular brand of powder which is weird. I would suggest trying different components as he easiest fix first followed by changing out a different brand nipple second and 3rd if necessary pull the breech plug and polish the powder chamber.

Dan

RichG · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2020, 03:23:01 AM »

If the gun has a patent breech, cleaning between shots usually leads to trouble. Damp patches just push the fouling into the chamber. Wet lubes for plinking and trails usually allows you to shoot all day. Oil patches usually allow plenty of shots for any type of hunting. That being said all guns are different and you may just need to figure what your gun likes.

John Shaw · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2020, 05:40:40 AM »

I shot my 32 today, 20 shots wiping with a damp patch followed by a dry one between shots. No problems at all. It has a patent hook breech. The key may be to use a patch that is just damp and not soaking wet. The dry patch became the next wet patch. Accuracy and loading are much better with this process.

JS

Fyrstyk · « **Reply #5 on:** January 12, 2020, 06:34:23 PM »

If your cleaning patch is a tight fit on the jag, you are pushing fouling into the breech area which is quite small on a .32 rifle. Try using a smaller jag. (I use a .30 caliber CF rifle jag in my .32's) with your cleaning patch. The idea is to pull the fouling out, not push it into the breach are. Using a smaller diameter jag, the patch and jag will go down the barrel loosely, but when you pull it out, the patch bunches up on the jag and pulls the fouling out. Another option, would be to mark your ramrod with your gun loaded. Then when using your cleaning patch do not go all the way to the breech. Stop your downward movement at your mark and pull out. This way you are not pusing fouling into the breech area, and subsequent shots will clear the little remaining fouling where you stopped with your cleaning patch.

Daryl · « **Reply #6 on:** January 12, 2020, 09:23:30 PM »

Rob- the cleaning between shots, as the other fellows say, is the problem.
If you re-crown your muzzle to a nice smooth surface into the rifling, you will
be able to load a tighter combination - like a .015" to .018" patch with that
.315" ball and never have to wipe or clean the bore while you are shooting.
That in itself will eliminate your ignition problems. My .32 shoots "literally" all
day long without having to wipe the bore. Indeed, with Track's mink oil, the
second through 50th shots load easier than the first one in the dry bore.

hanshi · « **Reply #7 on:** January 12, 2020, 11:57:11 PM »

I'll second Daryl's suggestion. I don't like to spend time swabbing the bore; I'd much rather spend the time shooting. It's easy to make this very minor adjustment which will relieve you from ever wiping the bore until you're ready to clean the gun.

borderdogs · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2020, 01:43:07 AM »

Hi Guys,
I really appreciate all the suggestions I really do. I tried again today ran a couple of dry patches through the cleaned barrel then 35 FFFg and I had some .015 shooting patches that I used instead of the .010 I was using yesterday. Prior to shooting the first round I changed the nipple to one with a longer thread so it will drop down a bit more than the one I got with the rifle. I also used used some Remington #11 hot caps and fired the first shot with no problem. Didnt clean it like before just loaded it up and just the cap went off. I have a marked ramrod that is marked for unload and loaded with 35 grains and a patched round ball. So I checked it with the rod and the ball didnt move. I then cleaned the nipple with a needle and tried again, nothing and no movement. I tried a few more caps and finally I felt movement and checked with the rod and the ball had moved halfway up from where it started. I then dribbled more powder through the nipple hole (around 30 or so) fired again the the ball came out. It was getting dark or I would have tried again.

Looking at the rifle I would say it needs to be crowned there is one but not very much of one. When I loaded the second ball I could feel the burnt residue a bit as the patched ball went down. So I get how the residue could be pushed to interfere with ignition. So now I am not sure what to do and feel pretty frustrated with this problem.
Thanks,
Rob

borderdogs · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2020, 05:55:12 PM »

Hi Guys,
After shooting the .32 yesterday and having the same problem I am at a loss of what to do next. I am sure the ignition is either blocked by bridging from crud or maybe powder. I didn't clean the rifle after shooting I plan on trying it again today. Rather than 3F I might try 2F just to see if that makes any difference. I assume that this is a patent breach I think the parts to build this rifle came from Don Stith.

Having tried different nipples, different caps, not cleaning between shots, using a thicker patch, using a different patch lube, and still having a problem with consistent ignition I am at a loss. I have never had a problem like this before and I have owned and shot many rifles like this with no problems at all. The only difference is this is the first time with a .32. I was talking with a friend yesterday about this problem and he said pull the breach plug and look at it might need polishing or a chamfer. This is a finished rifle so I am hesitant to that. I am hoping that this rifle doesn't become an expensive wall hanger.

So, again any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Rob

Bob Roller · « **Reply #10 on:** January 13, 2020, 06:11:31 PM »

Quote from: richs on January 12, 2020, 12:31:04 AM

I have a 50 cal. Hawken full stock percussion, Green Mountain barrel. After snapping a cap, it shoots great but hates to be cleaned. Can fire 15 rounds in a row with great accuracy and then I run a damp patch and a dry patch through the bore. The gun misfires every time on the first cap after cleaning. When I clean between 15 round strings, I snap a cap after cleaning, then load. Shoots every time. Each gun is different and has its likes and dislikes. The idea of a hotter cap or opening the flash channel is a good idea.
Rich

Opening the flash channel may be a bad idea. The LESS pressure on the base of the nipple,the BETTER.
There IS a reason the high end English rifles have breech plugs designed to prevent extreme pressures
on th base of the nipple.Bill Large made a few barrels with a nice,cast steel bolster breech and the base
of the nipple was exposed to the full pressure of 110 grains of powder and two nipples were blown out.
I know for a fact the threads were fully engaged on both the nipples and they still blew. The blow back
was violent enough to snap the tumbler arms of my lock both times.The breech was replaced with one
Bill made and no more problems.This is written from personal experiences.Maybe hotter caps will help
but I have no idea as to who makes hotter caps today or even yesterday.
Bob Roller

borderdogs · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2020, 07:27:56 PM »

Hi Bob,
I have two kinds of #11 caps CCI and Remington the Remington advertises on the tin 40% hotter. When using them there is much more spark on the Remington than the CCI but I don't know how that translate to how much hotter they actually are. In the case of this rifle in particular it made no difference. I am pretty sure this is a bridging issue I am just not sure how to cure it.
Thanks,
Rob

Fyrstyk · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2020, 08:08:04 PM »

Borrow, or get an endoscope (bore scope) to view the inside breech area of your rifle. You may be able to determine what the problem is before you try de-breeching the gun. I would not recommend switching to 2f powder for your .32. 2f will burn somewhat dirtier, and you don't want any more fouling than you are currently getting with 3f. I think the scope will reveal your problem. If you ante-chamber is very narrow, it could be causing your problem. If it is, that can be remedied by having the anti-chamber opened up with a larger sized drill bit.

Daryl · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2020, 08:51:01 PM »

I think the gun has a small-ish flash channel and it is still fouled from the first shooting of the gun (unless the barrel was removed and flushed in a bucket of water for cleaning, that is).

borderdogs - how do you clean the bore after shooting?

borderdogs · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2020, 10:22:40 PM »

Hi Daryl,
If I am at home I remove the barrel and flush it with warm to almost hot water from a hose and use a mild soap until it runs clean with the nipple removed if percussion. Then I run a brush through it scrubbing the entire bore and run warm water through it again. Then wipe it off and start with some dry patches and see how dirty they are. They are usually a little dirty so I use some black powder bore solvent on patches until they come clean. I use to use a swab but I find I do a better job just using patches. On the nipple hole I use pipe cleaners with some bore solvent or Qtips depending on what I have. At home I have an air compressor so I sometimes blow air through the nipple hole. With the nipple I usually let them sit in hot water and mild soap soak. Clean the vent hole with a needle and some bore solvent and a blast of air.

Once the barrel is dry and clean I run some gun oil patches through the bore and use a Qtip or pipe cleaner to get some oil in the nipple hole. Then reinstall the nipple and barrel. When I plan to shoot I thoroughly clean the rifle, nipple, and nipple hole to remove the oil and snap a couple caps before I load. I have used this method for over 40 years and never had a problem before.
Thanks,
Rob

kudu · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2020, 11:57:03 PM »

what type / brand of caps?
CCI seem to be the best to me, I have a Pistol (Ruger Old Army) it shoots very well with CCI not so much with other brands.
I dont much clean between shots (unless Im using Teflon in a bench gun on the line.)

I think you should smooth the crown and then use a damp patch of .015 or thicker no less.

I dont Know what type of Breech it has but Flat bottom is the best. you ought to be able to shoot 50 times. with out a problem.

Oh the cap needs to push/fit onto the nipple all the way otherwise the first hammer fall is just "seating" the cap all the way down. and the next hammer fall it will fire.

Im not to sure who likes the "patent" Breech or "Dirt Cave" as I call it. But as Far as Im concerned
its just too much problems and adds nothing to a well made Gun. And would go so far as to say if, had one I would be re- doing the Breech plug.

I must admitt I shoot mostly Flint Locks. But I Know a fellow that has a Custom Cap Lock rifle made to copy a Fine English Gun with a "Drip Bar" and late style Lock. BUTT It also has a "Vent" just like a Flinter, I dont think its Platinum probably harden stainless but its a sweet shooter and if it needs a brass wire in the vent no problem. "I really need to build one like his a VERY NICE GUN!

Semisane · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2020, 02:40:02 AM »

borderdogs · « **Reply #17 on:** January 14, 2020, 04:23:25 PM »

Hi Guys,
For some reason I couldn't write a reply yesterday, maybe the page didn't load right I am no computer guy. Anyway, I wanted to update you with the issues I have had on this .32 rifle ignition problem.

One of the comments mentioned a narrow vent hole so rather than try to shoot it again I did a super cleaning of the rifle; barrel and nipple hole. I got both real clean and spent some time trying to get a good light down the nipple hole to see what the bottom looked like. With good lighting and using a loop I could see that the bottom of the nipple hole looked somewhat oblong and irregular. I have two other rifles with the same breach (a .50 and a .58) and I took the nipples off and cleaned the holes to get the oil out so I could get a good look at the bottom. On both of those rifles the bottom and the vent hole looked clean and centered and with both rifles I have never had a problem with ignition. Looking at the .32 it is definitely not centered or clean. I think that the bottom is where the residue is bridging and resulting in poor ignition. I think I need to take a drill and deepen that area and clean up that vent. I think there is enough material to even up the bottom and vent hole using a pin vise and the appropriate sized drill. I plan to do it in the next day or so and then try shooting it again and see what happens

I appreciate all the replies I got and I really appreciate the thoughtful insight to my issues with this rifle.
Thanks a lot,
Rob

Sparkitoff · « **Reply #18 on:** January 14, 2020, 06:27:13 PM »

Lean the muzzle forward with the lock facing down. Pour the powder real slow. When it is poured, tap the butt on a piece of leather on the ground (or something soft). Then pick up the rifle and smack the lock plate opposite the lock. Do it 6, 10 even 15 times. Then smack the barrel right above the patent breach (or where it would be) a half dozen times. All that banging should wiggle some powder in the flash channel. This might sound ridiculous (and it is to some extent, you shouldn't have to do it) but I have one rifle that doesn't want to fire every time unless I do this little ritual. If I do it (begrudgingly) it works, every time.

Daryl · « **Reply #19 on:** January 14, 2020, 09:37:10 PM »

Rob - I cringed when reading about your use of hot water and soap for cleaning. Neither is necessary as cold or tepid water from the tap is
all that is needed. Most soaps have either salt or some form of acid in their makeup and are not needed, anyway. Just the cold water is all.

If I had a rifle or smoothbore that I had to beat up to get it to shoot, I'd sell it for a song.

MuskratMike · « **Reply #20 on:** January 14, 2020, 09:45:34 PM »

I seldom use "breech scrapers" but I do use this little guy once in a while on my rifles from .40 - .54 don't get much but even a little is too much. Mine has 10-32 threads but they also come 8-32 I believe. If I had a "crud catcher" breech (which I wouldn't) I would use this every cleaning just after the first tepid water soak.

borderdogs · « **Reply #21 on:** January 14, 2020, 11:58:34 PM »

The mild soap I use is Murphys and only a few drops in the water I am sure I could do it without it and just use plain water. The lube I like is the stuff from TOTW mink oil that comes in a tin but I have used others too and I usually have pre-oiled shooting patches on hand. I am going to take a few pictures and see if I can post them here.

On the flash hole I am only going to try to clean it up it looks like there is debris over the hole which makes it look like its off center. Also there are a couple slight burs that I will take off. If I can get a good photo of that I will post a before and after.
Thanks,
Rob

Daryl · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2020, 04:03:22 AM »

Sounds good, Rob. It is common for a layer of fouling (forms on the bottom of the nipple) to be visible in the breech
at the bottom of the nipple thread hole, however cleaning should remove that, of course.

steven baker · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2020, 01:17:47 PM »

Hi Rob, have you tried less powder say 25 gr 3f, less powder means less poo [fouling] ,maybe Swiss powder may help .Small bores give big problems sometimes to deal with ,good luck and dont give up, take care Steven.

borderdogs · « **Reply #24 on:** January 15, 2020, 04:25:25 PM »

Before I shoot the rifle again I am going to clean the burs off the flash hole and will probably do it tonight. Like I said I will take a few pictures of the rifle and of the area I plan to fix, that is if they come out ok. Looking at the rifle's crown there is a very slight one there but it has been rust browned. The last time I shot the rifle I used .015" patches and they were pretty easy to start. While trying thicker patches I doubled up .010" patches and the ball/patch combo .315" ball & .020" patch, and that was very tight. It was so tight I decided to pull it and use the .015" patch.

I will take a picture of the crown too but I think the rifle might need to be crowned. I will work of the breach first before I will do anything with the crown but does anyone have a source for that crowning tool that uses sand paper? I am not sure of the name of that tool.
Thanks,
Rob

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Author Topic: question on a .32 percussion rifle (Read 5587 times)

richs