Lets see your Hawken/Plains Rifle

[borderdogs]

Yes indeed alacran really nice color!  As Herb said I am enjoying these postings too I am with him keep them coming!
Rob

[realtorone]

Dan  The pictures of Some of Don's Hawken and Plain rifles sure brings back memories..I think I watched him work on the first full stock 69-70 something like that. I don't know if this is true or not but Don said the  first full stock he found down south east of Wichita ,out in the country.The old people collected shaving mugs and he traded some for ether the Hawken .or just got it to copy. I just don't remember the facts. I'm pushing 82 and I can tell my memory just is not as sharp as it once was. I know he kept the original while he   was building that first one I saw. I wish now I had gotten himto build me a Hawken and not the venson. But GI's didn't make much as a S/Sgt.in the late 60's.
Take care my friend
George Hebling

[sz]

100_1479 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
100_1812 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
Wes's 1.1 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
And inspired by Peloux

Copy of L.H. Peloux 1 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr

[snapper]

Since you guys are getting your Hawken rifle fever up, I thought I would post the following information.

Art Fleener
NMLRA Secretary


https://www.nmlra.org/hawkenhistoryclassic

HAWKEN HISTORY RECREATED
With Pleasure, the NMLRA is proud to announce the establishment of the Hawken History Classic in St. Louis, MO. St. Louis is the home of Jake and Sam Hawken, as well as the famous Hawken Rifle, to celebrate their 200th anniversary we will be organizing these annual gathers each fall from 2021-2025.

These events will be an experience never seen before, focusing on Hawken History, education, and living history. We have partnered with The Hawken Shop as well as the Historic Daniel Boone Home to include a variety of Hawken Shooting Sports activities.

If you are interested in being a part of this event, please contact the NMLRA Office. We will be working hard in the coming months to share more about the event as we build. Thank you for your patience.

[MuskratMike]

One full stock .58 caliber made by Mike Nesbitt, the other a .54 made by the Gun Works Muzzleloading Emporium in Springfield, Oregon. Don't let 'um hang on walls get out and use them as Sam & Jake would have wanted.





free online image host

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I currently only have one Hawken rifle.  I built it in 2011 around a Rice .62 cal x 36" tapered barrel and a Robert Roller lock.  The rifle weighs just over 11 pounds, and is superbly accurate.

[Mtn Meek]

I'm posting some more pictures for Bob Lienemann.



Like Dan said, Don King did them right per an original, and he made locks, triggers and mounts to match the old guns.  Here are a few details of his work.






Of course, the Hawken brothers didn't just make rifles. Here’s Joe Corley’s copy of an original J & S HAWKEN marked pistol, originally flint but converted to percussion.





And a copy I made, with coaching from Jack Brooks to suggest a stub twist barrel, with case hardened breechplug and mounts.

[borderdogs]

I love those pistols! What is their caliber? What lock are they equipped with?
Rob

[blienemann]

Rob, the pistols are .58, straight barrels about 7" long like the original pistol.  The original was converted to drum and nipple, with a round tailed plate, so we've used the old Ron Long flintlock, later made by Davis - now taken over by Log Cabin Shop, and the Hawken Shop also has this lock.  Modified a bit.

[Smokey Plainsman]

These guns are inferior to the earlier flintlocks and are boring and uninteresting, and take 0 skill to shoot and any fool with half a brain cell can operate one, and despite replacing flintlocks almost universally in a handful of years both in military and civilian hands everywhere around the globe, somehow the caplocks are inferior technology not worthy of any serious study.

Or, so say the flintlock elitist naysayers.

 

-Smokey

[Bob Roller]

These guns are inferior to the earlier flintlocks and are boring and uninteresting, and take 0 skill to shoot and any fool with half a brain cell can operate one, and despite replacing flintlocks almost universally in a handful of years both in military and civilian hands everywhere around the globe, somehow the caplocks are inferior technology not worthy of any serious study.

Or, so say the flintlock elitist naysayers.

 

-Smokey

I THINK the bloody UNcivil war was fought with mostly percussion fired guns and toward the end of that
sorry episode,repeatng rifles started to appear.Today the flint locks are recreational items and the study
of these marvelous mechanisms is a real treat for the firearms historians.The locks that came into being
when the caplocks started making inroads into custom guns were designed and made by obstructionists
that were determined to make the flintlock dominant but they finally had to admit defeat.One argument
against the percussion fired guns was that war would become even more horrible than ever by using
guns that were more certain to fire.I wonder what these people would say about today's guns that
can fire 6000 shots a minute and maybe more??
Bob Roller

[borderdogs]

blienemann,
.58 in that pistol would be quite a wallop. Have you shot yours often? what kind of load do you use.
Taylor, what was the range on the moose you shot? What was the load used? I love those pictures too.
Rob

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Rob:  the first one was at 80 yards and the second at 86 yards.  Both were standing still staring at me.
The load was a .613" pure lead ball from a .610 Lyman mould.  .020 denim patch lubed with mink oil/grease over 127 gr. FFg GOEX.  Both were pass through's...no ball recovery.  They were both excellent eating, feeding our extended families for nearly two years each.

[Daryl]

Rob, the finish on that rifle is just straight beeswax over and into the wood/stain.

[MuskratMike]

It was NOT the un-civil war it was as my great uncle called it "the war of northern aggression"
As for the topic of this post I live in an area where the Hawken & plains rifles are king. I find them to be too heavy and for the most part unbalanced. Due to the stock configuration they also tend to kick like the perverberal Gerogia mule. I won't even enter the discussion of cap lock vs flintlock, other than to say I have owned and shot both extensively and now own no cap locks and believe if the good Lord wanted you to shoot caps he would have sprinkled them on the ground instead of shards of flint.
So sayeth the "Muskrat"

[Herb]

Here's a .54 Hawken pistol kit I finished for Randy.  30 grains of Goex 2F

Returning to the theme of Hawken/Plains Rifles-
A .54 Stith kit I finished for a guy in the Aleutian Islands per his specifications.  .58 Fullstock flint-  Engraved .54-   don't remembr last two, based on Kit Carson's Hawken.

My Bridger Hawken before I finished staining it, my engraved .54 and the .58 flinter with a target shot with Swiss 1 1/2F

One of my first few, a .54 GRRW barrel and a stock I whittled out of a piece of hard West Virginia walnut.  Had a hard time inletting that left-hand Davis lock, they are NOT a mirror image of a right-hand lock- my Bridger-  a .45 Leman trade rifle I built in the GRRW shop in 1978-  a .50 BRASS mounted Hawken (original was at the Cody Museum)-  .58 flint Hawken-inspired rifle-  A .40 Hawken plains/Missouri squirrel rifle hybrid-   a .50 antelope rifle (see Muzzleloader Magazine Nov/Dec 2019 "A Utah Pronghorn Hunt". (You can left-click the picture to bring up the original, click the + to enlarge).

My brass mounted rifle and Jim Gordon's photos of it.

Closer view of Gordon's photos.

So much for now.  Got to go do the finish stock filing and sanding of my last Jim Bridger copy so I can move on to several more Carson copies.

[snrub47]

He is my first Hawken attempt....

[Herb]

snrub47, you did that purty good.  No flies on that one.  Looks like a Stith trigger guard.

[borderdogs]

Hi Guys,
Would a patch box be rare on a Hawken flint or better put an early Hawken?
Rob

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

There are quite a few extant Hawken rifles that have patch boxes, and more that have cap boxes, so it would be reasonable to think that the brothers put them on flint rifles too.
Here's one I added to a Percussion rifle...

[rich pierce]

Hi Guys,
Would a patch box be rare on a Hawken flint or better put an early Hawken?
Rob

Well, we can only speculate. The one flintlock J&S Hawken I feel good about is a robust fullstock without a patchbox. Fixed breech.

[Bob Roller]

Hi Guys,
Would a patch box be rare on a Hawken flint or better put an early Hawken?
Rob

On a Hawken FLINT?? Who has ever seen one with or without a patch box ?

Bob Roller

[Herb]

Some comments on my photos above.  If you enlarge the Swiss 1 1/2 photo by left-clicking it, you can read my target.  Note that a powder measure (the first one on the left) that held 100 grains by weight of Goes 2F held 117 grains of Swiss 1 1/2F by weight!  That is one reason Swiss is called hotter, and why I make measures to hold by weight each charge of each powder.  The black can is the first Olde Eynsford sold at Fort Bridger,  I bought it in September 2012, it is 1 1/2F.  The can is marked "test sample NOT FOR SALE".

Then the photo of the brass-mounted Hawken.  It was not out for Bob and me to measure at the firearms museum in Cody when we photographed and measured all the Hawkens which were available to us in December, 2018.  It is quite different.  I scaled it out from Gordon's photo, using a measurement of 4.85" for the lock plate, which we  measured on Liver Eating Johnson's lock, shown on page 375 of Gordon's book.  It scales out 52.8" long, with a 36.4" barrel, 18" fore end, snail to nose cap (LEJ's is 14" measured), and a length of pull of 14.27" (LEJ's was 13.375").  It is unlike other Hawkens, except  the WS Hawken, which is so totally different as to be ugly to my eyes.  Besides, the bore is very rough.  We measured that one, too, or tried to, the bore was so rough I could not determine a diameter.

Another comment on caliber listed in the Cody Museum web page.  They measured the muzzles with a tapered brass bore gauge and think that is the caliber, but all Hawkens have a relieved muzzle, and the actual bore diameter is smaller.  We pushed sized bore "jag" gauges into the bores to actually measure them.  Liver Eating Johnson's rifle bore is .583" at the muzzle but .537 in the bore.  We measured the twist and got one inch in 50.8", which is probably really 1-48".

Gordon's book pictures 29 "Plains rifle" Hawkens, and eight have patch boxes and one a cap box.

[borderdogs]

So if building a copy of an early Hawken it could have a capbox, fixed breach, and pinned barrel?
Rob

[borderdogs]

Here is a link to a video from the NRA National Museum on the Hawken brothers and rifles:



The rifle in the video looks like a Hawken squirrel rifle and has a cap box on it. Could  you expect to see a cap box like this on an early Hawken rifle?
Rob