Professional Builders, How much do you charge to assemble a kit?

[Dstavlo]

Hello all,

I'm sure this question must have been asked before, but a search of previous posts yielded no results. If I've somehow missed where this discussion was posted originally, my apologies.

Anyway, I'm a full time gunsmith and gun builder, but I primarily specialize in the building and restoration of Civil War period muskets and rifles. I have built long rifle kits for myself and a few clients in the past, but I'm having difficulty determining what a fair and competitive "rate" for a completed long rifle should be. I don't want to price myself out of the market, but at the same time I don't want to give the things away either.

In the past, Brownells used to poll their professional gunsmith customers to find out what the industry was charging for basic gunsmithing services like, stock refinishing, metal bluing, barrel installation, etc. and they would publish the results in their gunsmith tools catalogue. This gave other 'smiths a good idea of what they should charge without pricing themselves out of the market, or undercharging for their labor.  This has been a great tool for the modern gunsmith, but to my knowledge, nothing like this exists for long rifle builders.

So, knowing that price varies considerably based on the amount of carving and engraving, what are you guys charging your customers to assemble a plain jane Track of the Wolf or Jim Chambers long rifle kit with no embellishments? I'm talking just labor costs, assuming the customer provides the kit.

Thanks for the advice,
David

[rich pierce]

Most pros are not going to answer that question. I sent you a PM on what I’ve observed.

It’s kinda personal. What did your W2s say last year?  Just an illustration.

[Bob McBride]

Not to mention most would pay a fairly substantial premium for Mike Brooks, EK, or Taylor, or Jim K, et al, to finish that kit for us as opposed to someone who could do the same work but without that something special. I could work a year on a gun and not expect to get what these guys would get for a 3-day gun that they took the middle day off to go golfing....

As my old Pap would say, “there’s a lot of hair on that question boy”.


Welcome to the forum. Most questions you ask here will get a dozen very well thought out and articulate answers. That one’s just a toughy.

[Stoner creek]

What is your time worth for an 8 hour day? Responsible gun work should be worth a minimum of $120.00 a day. You’re making a big whopping $15.00 per hour. It should be more than that but I’m using that number as a low benchmark. Depending on the kit, time will be a factor.
 I can do a decent job on a Kibler Colonial kit in the equivalent of 4 days (no carving, no frills). $480.00 plus supplies. I have assembled 2 of these kits. They are very well done but I’ve put away my kit building tools. I’m not for hire as a kit assembler.

[smallpatch]

It also spends on what you're calling a "kit".  A
Kibler kit can be assembled in 5-8 hours.  A Chambers kit, more like 40, I'm sure others are longer.
It's kinda like...... what does a car cost?

[Scota4570]

Jim Kibler offers an assembled in the white unfinished  option.  That costs $700 above the kit price. 

I have seen  Kiblers on track with some folk art quality carving for something like $3500.  The kit costs So for me that would $2400 for two weeks several hours a day.  Then Track takes their cut, 40% ?  So 1500 or say 750 a week??  But then supplies and consumables.  Shipping to Track?   And as pointed out in my thread from yesterday, liability insurance costs.  IT gets pretty thin quickly. 

A parts set of ordinary quality might take over 100 hours.  Those can be a big hot mess. 

[Bill Raby]

Charge the same hourly rate that you do for any other gunsmith work and don't care about being fair and competitive. If someone thinks it is too expensive they can go somewhere else and you can do your normal work instead. Or are you going to work for half your normal rate just to be fair?

[Davemuzz]

Just a few thoughts.........

When I worked for a living (CPA Tax guy) I charged my corporate clients by the hour. However, for the individual client (Tax Season) I did what we referred to as "value billing."  So, if you called me (and this was 15 years ago) and ask "how much" my secretary was instructed to answer that question (without knowing anything involved with the prospective client) to say "We start at $200 and depending upon the complexity it will be billed accordingly."

Today if you call my old firm the minimum start price is $500.  We don't compete with the H&R Tax guys nor the on-line tax prep services. Don't want that business.

Transferring that to a gun builder (a service like any other service business) I would believe (and I don't build guns for others) the same philosophy would\could\should apply. There's a lot of knowledge necessary for tax prep and that's what your paying for. There's a lot of knowledge in building a front stuffer firearm. And that would be what you're paying for.

Just MHO

[WKevinD]

When I do minor repairs for neighbors, usually right before hunting season or modifications (typically changing sights) I charge cost of parts and for most jobs a pound of fffg. If it is a more complex job that takes more than an hour it may be two pounds.
I would probably spend what cash I made on powder and lead anyhow.
If your taking away from my regular shop time I charge by the day. I'm a terrible businessman and undercharge friends and club members.
I need to work on consistency and not look at how much I enjoy doing stuff in the shop.

Kevin

[Mike Brooks]

If you're any good you should get the same dollars per hour that you pay the guy that comes to unplug your toilet. I have been doing this full time since '96 and get about 1/2 of that. I'd suggest you keep doing what you're doing, there is no money in building muzzleloaders.

[WKevinD]

there is no money in building muzzleloaders.

Reminds me of farming..."if you want to make a little money farming, start out with a whole lot of money." Then you usually break even.

Kevin

[okawbow]

“ There is no money in building...fill in the blank.”
Few people today are willing to pay a craftsman the same wages as they make at where ever they work. I make custom longbows, and people who make 5 times more in a year are constantly wanting me to “ give them a deal.”

These same people who are officers in a club will call up and ask for ( demand) donations for their banquet auctions. Then at the auction, they won’t pay half of the value of the donation! People are just plain cheap.

[bob in the woods]

Don't mention that you are a gunsmith.  Create "functional art " instead and double your price 

[borderdogs]

and speaking of farming I raise sheep and have a flock of around 30 and I don't even get close to breaking even. Here in NH if you want to make a living via sheep you need to run 1000 head and if you can lamb twice a year. Plus you have to make your own hay. It can be done but its a  lot of work. No wonder so many farmers on the edge of the border in the 1760's became long hunters or market hunters there was more money and less work in it.

I have been in business and in manufacturing for near 40 years and to make money you have to be honest about what time is worth plus the material and the cost of shop space and keeping the lights on, etc. I am not a gun builder but the same principals apply there as well. From my estimates on contracting on custom guns my guess is that many well renown gun builders charge well below what should be their hourly (or daily for that matter) rate.
Rob

[bama]

How much do you earn on an hourly basis at your day job? Your time is a valuable commodity how much is it worth to you? If you're clients don't think your time is worth your cost you can reduce your cost by cutting time or quality or change your clientele.

Fortunately I don't depend on gun building for a living but I work very hard at making it pay for my habit, if you get my jist. I have lost many more rifle builds than I have rifles built because potential clients did not like my price. I have set a limit of quality that is acceptable to me and I will not waver on that. I know how much time it takes to achieve this quality and I charge accordingly. If that is acceptable, then I proceed if not then life goes on.

I have seen several that give their labor away for the cost of the parts or a couple of hundred dollars over the cost of the parts and if that's your price so be it. Most of the builder's that do this do it for the fun of building, there is nothing wrong with this. I have seen some nice rifles that have been made by these builder's. I think that once a builder progresses beyond the hobby builder then he should be compensated just like any other professional.

Each person has to be a judge of his value, if the quality of his work is equal to that value, then he will be successful.

[kudu]

I dont want to sound  terrible. Im just too SLOW.

 Iv'e  scratch made  4 Guns all for myself. and they arn't works of art, but but great shooter's.

You just couldn't  pay me enough to build Guns Not Muzzeloading longrifles or Smoothbore's.
and I have a full shop Bridgport Mill , Lathe,  Band saw etc. I'm just too SLOW.

I shot woods walk the other day and cleaned the course with my Smooth bore Trade gun, even beat the Rifles.
after the shoot around the campfire a guy asked me how do get it to shoot dead on with only a front sight. i told him I had the barrel out of the gun 7 times, precisely bending it, with dial indicators and re shooting it for two days. That and the unseen (NO NO, of Glass Beading) under parts of the barrel that you cant see and I dont tell you about!
He says to me could you bend mine like that? and get it to shoot?
 
I told him maybe but it takes a awful long time developing a load first. and then getting it to shoot- right on point of aim etc, etc. I got so much to do, and I would feel bad if I had to charge you what I though it was worth.

But I could tell you how to do it with just a few simple tools maybe a dial indicator and lots of time!

 Shooting taking the barrel out Bending(arching)  re-testing "have a snack" shoot it again record the group average. Think about it. re shoot, sleep on it, get up the next day re-adjust, bend, shoot for a average group location. another snack more bending  file the sight just a touch shoot another group for average. all this offhand and just using the the shots you called and know were good.

Thats how I got it to shoot, and I still wonder about it sometimes!!!

OH I just though you bent it. he say's?

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Wait!! Somebody makes money doing this??

Cory Joe

[rich pierce]

I know guys who do kits for friends. It’s a way of making a fine build more affordable for a friend.

[smylee grouch]

I got a big surprise about 30 + or - years ago. A guy and his wife came walking by my table at a large gun show and looked my selection over. Seen the $1300.00 price tag on a longrifle and said that was too much. His wife said "well at least you could go out and shoot a deer with it, something you can,t do with any of those $500.00 limited edition prints you keep buying."  I stayed out of the conversation and they walked off. She was right of course.   

[Bob Roller]

Hey,It's a MUZZLELOADER and it supposed to be cheap even if the quality surpasses
the General Grant Whitmore and the best Taylor Sapergia can do as well as the rest of
us here.
Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I had an interesting call recently from a fellow who apparently knows me and my work, from Taylor, British Columbia.  He asked me if I would put together a kit for him, that he didn't have the time, and I told him that I was making every effort to retire from that kind of work, that I wasn't building guns for clients anymore.  He said he didn't want me to build a gun, JUST DO SOME KIT BASHING!  I informed him that I definitely didn't kit bash, and we left it at that.

[David Rase]

Wasn't it Hershel House who once said "building guns is a good way to starve to death slowly."
David

[davec2]

I am not a professional gun maker, but I have now taken on four commissions. Three are long done and # 4 is just a few coats of finish away from being done.  I think the best I have done is about $3 an hour. 
David.... if that is a quote from Hershel it only applies to someone as good as he is. For those of us who are rank amateurs, we could starve to death quickly !

[dogcatcher]

You can only build for about what the going market price is.   Do you have the experience to know the secrets of short cuts, have the power tools to speed up the process?  If not you are building mostly for the experience and to keep busy.

[JBJ]

It is referred to as "genteel poverty".
J.B.