Author Topic: Sights Help  (Read 2931 times)

Smokey Plainsman

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Sights Help
« on: January 25, 2020, 01:44:13 AM »
Hey all, my rifle is shooting 6” low at 50 yards with an accurate grouping. I did the calculations and it said I need to file the front sight .21”. Well, the front sight is only .26” tall, so basically it would cease to exist.

This is an old Douglas barrel and I’m thinking maybe it has runnout I need to correct for. I’ve dialed in the windage and indeed I had to put the front and rear sights notably off center of the barrel flats.

So I’m either going to need a stupid looking super tall rear sight, or super short front sight.

Just wondering what you all would do out there. I plan to never buy another Douglas barrel rifle, or any rifle barrel that has a reputation for runnout. Causes too many problems. Thanks in advance, all.

-Smokey

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2020, 01:47:47 AM »
Add 10 grains of powder to see how that goes before getting out the file
Psalms 144

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2020, 01:50:02 AM »
Bend the barrel. 

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2020, 02:06:45 AM »
Add 10 grains of powder to see how that goes before getting out the file

Well I was hoping to use it for squirreling... I’m already at 40 grains so don’t want to hunt the squirrels with 50 grains in a .40 if I can avoid that.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2020, 02:21:58 AM »
Bend the barrel.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2020, 02:57:02 AM »
I wonder if another rear sight that is only SLIGHTLY higher might bring up the group, at least enough so you won,t have to file so much off the front.

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2020, 03:06:04 AM »
Bend the barrel.

I’m really good at bending things brother but not sure how to do a barrel “the proper way” as it were.

Offline Mauser06

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2020, 03:22:38 AM »
It's literally as simple as it seems.



Take the barrel off the gun.


You want it to shoot higher so bend the muzzle upwards. 


I usually find a tree with a Y. Put the breech (watch the tang. Don't bend that..) in the Y and pull the muzzle the way I want it to shoot.   


You'd have to really go full Hulk on it to actually do any damage.  First time you do it, you'll feel like you bent it a lot and it probably won't even move...

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2020, 03:44:52 AM »
It's literally as simple as it seems.



Take the barrel off the gun.


You want it to shoot higher so bend the muzzle upwards. 


I usually find a tree with a Y. Put the breech (watch the tang. Don't bend that..) in the Y and pull the muzzle the way I want it to shoot.   


You'd have to really go full Hulk on it to actually do any damage.  First time you do it, you'll feel like you bent it a lot and it probably won't even move...

Wow, what a trip. I think I’d need a little corn likker in my system before I could work myself up to try it.

Offline xx54

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2020, 04:01:45 AM »
I have always been a big fan of Douglas barrels and I decided one day that I would swamp a 15/16" 40 caliber. I did this by hand and it looked really nice, had a good profile but it had a slight warp in it once it was finished. I tried bending this barrel in a jig that I had made out of 2 x 4's with holes in them to slide the barrel through. I then set a hydraulic jack under the barrel and tried to bend it. The barrel would not bend, it was like a piece of spring steel. I was told that those barrels were made of a type of steel that was not stress relief. I personally would not suggest bending the barrel. Good luck with whatever you do.
XX54

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2020, 04:05:43 AM »
I have always been a big fan of Douglas barrels and I decided one day that I would swamp a 15/16" 40 caliber. I did this by hand and it looked really nice, had a good profile but it had a slight warp in it once it was finished. I tried bending this barrel in a jig that I had made out of 2 x 4's with holes in them to slide the barrel through. I then set a hydraulic jack under the barrel and tried to bend it. The barrel would not bend, it was like a piece of spring steel. I was told that those barrels were made of a type of steel that was not stress relief. I personally would not suggest bending the barrel. Good luck with whatever you do.
XX54

Oh, I see.

Tried looking for a taller rear sight. My rear dovetail is .530” wide, and couldn’t find anything in that size slot remotely tall enough, nor could I find any blanks for that size dovetail. It’s looking like I either need to custom make one (I have no idea how and few tools) or hire someone to make one for me. Either that or just shave the front sight down to be extremely low, maybe reprofiling it to be only as long as the dovetail, squaring off the rear portion of it.

It’s going to look pretty stupid I imagine, but if it can get the rounds where they need to go I won’t so much care.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 05:40:34 AM by Smokey Plainsman »

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2020, 05:50:52 AM »
.21 is quite a lot. I don't think it would take that much to raise your poi 6" at 50 yard. I would recheck my math to make sure.

Offline xx54

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2020, 06:03:54 AM »
Is it possible to guide the projectile by filing off the end of the muzzle on one side or the other.? I have never tride anything like that.

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2020, 06:12:24 AM »
.21 is quite a lot. I don't think it would take that much to raise your poi 6" at 50 yard. I would recheck my math to make sure.

No doubt. I’m going to triple check everything this weekend and still will do more load development before I do anything.

Smokey Plainsman

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2020, 06:12:58 AM »
Is it possible to guide the projectile by filing off the end of the muzzle on one side or the other.? I have never tride anything like that.

I’ve heard of this with shotguns but for a rifle sounds like a bad idea.

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2020, 06:42:19 AM »



I had the same problem once.  This piece of advice  came from a couple highly famous gunmakers.   Worked like a charm.
 It’s pretty self explanatory but I can give instructions if needed. 

Offline Herb

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2020, 08:34:06 AM »
I once shot a friend's rifle which had the muzzle polished lopsided.  I think the top was worn, and this threw the ball upward and it grouped well.  I no longer remember how I figured this out, but the suggestion to file the muzzle will work, but you don't have to file the whole muzzle face, just the crown, and not much, either  I once had a reject-Green River barrel, .40 caliber maybe 15/16" about 36 or 42" long, can't remember, and it had about three bends in it.  The suggestion to bend it in the crotch of a tree did not work.  Nor bending it with C-clamps.  A gunsmith friend put it in his barrel bending vise with some kind of hydraulic jack, and you would not believe how much that barrel had to be bent to effect a straightening.  In three places, as I remember.  Like maybe three inches up at each end!

A simpler method would be to make a tang mounted peep sight.  Take a piece of metal lumber strapping, or a hacksaw blade, drill a hole for the tang bolt, bend the back end up at right angles and the tang bolt holds it in place.  You can swing it to the side for windage correction.  You can mathematically calculate how high the hole has to be, or find the elevation (and windage correction) by shooting trial and error.  You could just duct-tape it on the tang with multiple vertical holes until you get the right elevation.  You can also try different sized holes till you find what works, maybe 1/8" up to 1/4 inch size.  Center your front sight and leave it uncut.  Or you can look at Track of the Wolf's web sight and probably find a rear sight that can be filed to work.   I have made several rear sights for Hawken rifles, hacksawed and filed out of a piece of 1/2" angle iron.
Herb

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2020, 05:35:45 PM »
I would bump up the powder charge as suggested... You could even go up 5 grains first instead of 10 and see what happens. It's the easiest thing to change and requires no physical alteration of the rifle. If it doesn't raise your POI to your POA then you've lost nothing.

If changing the powder charge doesn't work and you end up having to file the sights, file it down in VERY SMALL increments. A few licks with the file, fire a group. Repeat until satisfied.

Mike

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2020, 05:56:24 PM »
Before you do ANYTHING, make sure you've finished your load development. It's really hard to un-bend one.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline xx54

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2020, 06:00:42 PM »
Go with Mike suggestion.

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2020, 06:20:53 PM »
Smokey,
Go to the Track of the Wolf site and go to primitive sights under gun parts. There are any number of sights that will fit you dovetail.
Mark

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2020, 06:49:36 PM »
Smokey,
I found a sight "blank" in my stash that has a 13/16 base and a 5/8 high blade. You can certainly fit that to your dovetail and put in any type of slot you want. A $10 will get it sent to you. Send an email if you want a picture.
Mark

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2020, 07:03:59 PM »
File your front 1/4 or less of the correction you've calculated, and fire for group.   You might be surprised.  Math is fun, but shooting is funner-and the safest way to get your height right.

I'd play with the powder charge as well.  30 or 50 grains of powder is going to do the same damage to any small critter you shoot.  Try 5-grain increments, or maybe a different powder.  The heavier charge will fly faster, which reduces wind deflection and trajectory and extends range.

A gunmaker could replace the rear even if it required cutting a new slot in the bbl.  Originals sometimes show this.

Bending is probably not your best option with your limited tooling and experience, but is a viable option of long history and none too infrequent application.
Hold to the Wind

Offline LynnC

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2020, 07:15:03 PM »
Again. Mike from OK has the right approach.

I can see filing off .021”....21 Thousandths but not 21 Hundredths

Take your time. File and shoot.

Good luck........Lynn
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline Herb

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Re: Sights Help
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2020, 09:29:49 PM »
I remembered wrong on that polished crown.  It had to be more worn at the bottom, allowing the gas to escape around the ball and push it upward.  A swamped barrel can be bent very easily, but a 15/16" straight is like spring steel, as XX54 said. You can't bend it.  My old Green River barrel, Bill ironed out all the kinks and it shot straight and did not move zero even when hot.
Herb