Building a 4 Bore

[Daryl]

The full load for the 4 bore is 16 drams, at lest for the ctg. W.W.Greener noted in his book, the 9th Edition of The Gun and it's Development, that a lower low of a mere 12 drams, with the 1,750gr. round ball produced enough recoil over his recoil machine's maximum of 200pounds, that it broke the machine.
Not for me, thanks, but no thanks.
My little 14 bore kicks quite enough with a mere 6 drams and 482gr. ball.

[smylee grouch]

I have Greeners book some place but cant find it now. Does he list velocities for those loads? Curious as to what my 16 bore will be getting at 3 1/2 through 5 drams and 410 gr. ball.

[Bill Raby]

A number of the old elephant hunters were known to use up to 20 drams of powder in muzzleloaders. About 550 grains. I have seen historical data with velocities of 1700 fps for round ball and 1600 with 2000 grain conicals. No idea what loads were used for that or how accurate that is.

[bob in the woods]

My 10 bore with round ball and 140 gr FFg is where I draw the line.  I do have a 4 bore, but it's a swivel gun.  Mounted on a stump or the front of my canoe, it's a blast .   Shooting it convinced me I don't want to shoulder one !

[Longknife]

""""""""""So, with all that said here is my plan. The barrel I plan on using is a Krieger made out of chrome molly. The blank comes as a straight contour at 29" with an OD of 1.45" with a groove diameter of .950". The plan is to have a gunsmith cut the barrel down to 26" and thread for the breach.""""""""""""


 Big Bore, that Kriger barrel has a 20 inch twist,,,Might be a tad too fast for your application. You might want to check these guys out, They specialize in big bore Muzzle loading barrels, no machine work necessary And the bore will actually be ONE inch!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?Cat2Name=Oregon%20Barrel%20Co.%20Tapered%20Octagon&SubCat2ID=68&do=list&Cat1Name=Barrels

[Justin Urbantas]

Heck, they even sell a 2 bore barrel. Just in case Jurassic Park happens for real.

[Scota4570]

Is THEGUNWORKS back to making barrels?  I checked some time ago and the barrel maker was ill for the for see-able future and no barrels were being made. 

[Daryl]

Ahhh - 2 bore - now THAT's a biggie at 1.326".



This is the late Big Dog, with the 2 bore Steve made for him.

[smylee grouch]

2 bore!!! Yikes, that ramrod catcher on the end of the barrel is surly justified.

[JBJ]

What? No wheels? That's a cannon!
J.B.

[Scota4570]

What? No wheels? That's a cannon!
J.B.

I have a length of GAU-8 barrel in the parts bin.   After making a 4-bore, I think if I ever get around to making something with it, there will wheels not a shoulder stock. 

[rich pierce]

PMs sent. NO CARTRIDGE GUN DISCUSSIONS PICTURES ETC. PLEASE READ MISSION STATEMENT.

This topic is quite far from the essence of the American longrifle. You all are having fun but please adhere to the rules.

[sz]

That 2 bore is also one of my creations. Made for the man holding it who now is sadly passed on.  He went by "Big Dog" on the net.

[Dphariss]

To be useful  for its intended purpose a 4 bore needs to weigh 20 pounds or more. Remember when looking at some large bore English/Continental rifles of the ML period that they were twisted very fast. Far too fast for the PRB with any useful charge and thus are about the weight of a shotgun or even too light for that since the charges were so light to keep the patch intact. This is discussed and decried in Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles". Some English makers, according to Forsythe, would not even make a large bore rifle with a slow enough twist to allow a useful powder charge. As a result many big game hunters used smoothbores for heavy game or 2 groove fitted ball rifles like  Sir Samuel Baker's "devil stopper"  6 bore.
Fredrick Selous hunted Elephant in the 1870s in Africa with some light weight 4 bores intended for shot. 13 pounds if I recall. Recoil in a 22 pound gun, according to an internet site on a 4 bore brass suppository gun with 14 drams is 300 ft pounds. The loads needed for Elephant were so traumatic that he said he wished he had never used them since they effected his shooting for the rest of his life. But his gun bearer loaded them with a handful of powder, which according the Selous was 20 drams.  But in shooting African Elephant (the only reason for this bore size) the projectile must be capable of adequate penetration and even in a 4 bore a hardened lead ball was needed. As Turner Kirkland found out when he tried shooting pure lead from a 4 bore on Elephant and penetration was inadequate and the PH had to kill the Elephant after being shot twice with the 4 bore. The reason for the 6 and 4 bore guns was the possibility of having to stop a charge. The punishing recoil was the reason they were not very common.
If I were determined to have a large bore rifle I would build a 10 bore rifle first with a twist in the 72-80 inch range and shoot that with 150-180 grains of powder. The service load for the 10 bore smooth ML John Taylor used for a short time for Elephant and Rhino was 167 gr and a hardened ball.  I have a 16 bore rifle (one ounce ball at 1600 fps) and its all the recoil my damaged neck/back needs and I don't even shoot it anymore.
Rifles larger than 10 bore can be damaging to your health. If you shoot them at steel plate targets they can damage targets/hangers. And remember for a given velocity/muzzle energy with a given bullet weight, BP will generate 20% or so more recoil than smokeless powder will in the same firearm.
You have a potential with a 4 bore of damaging yourself in body and mind.
Finally if you insist it needs to be properly constructed by someone who knows how. Forget the drum and nipple.

Dan

[adam h]

if I had the chance to shoot one of these rifles  I would buy a mouth guard first
bigbore I say if that's what you like then go for it , a 62cal hawken rifle doesn't
sound to bad after reading all this

[WadePatton]

...
If I were determined to have a large bore rifle I would build a 10 bore rifle first with a twist in the 72-80 inch range and shoot that with 150-180 grains of powder. The service load for the 10 bore smooth ML John Taylor used for a short time for Elephant and Rhino was 167 gr and a hardened ball...
You have a potential with a 4 bore of damaging yourself in body and mind.
Finally if you insist it needs to be properly constructed by someone who knows how. Forget the drum and nipple.

Dan

Wisdom right there, and much more in the other comments as well.

No matter how big you make it, someone will make one bigger, as you can see by the 2-bore Steve built. 

[Shovelbuck]

It's obvious the original poster can handle extreme recoil from what he said he's shot. Some people can handle it, a lot can't. Just because you or somebody else can't handle it, doesn't mean he shouldn't build it.
To the original poster, build your 4 bore. Take your time, research, and have fun shooting it! I sure would!

[Mike Brooks]

It's obvious the original poster can handle extreme recoil from what he said he's shot. Some people can handle it, a lot can't. Just because you or somebody else can't handle it, doesn't mean he shouldn't build it.
To the original poster, build your 4 bore. Take your time, research, and have fun shooting it! I sure would!

Repeat severe recoil can cause a brain bleed and death.

[Scota4570]

It's obvious the original poster can handle extreme recoil from what he said he's shot. Some people can handle it, a lot can't. Just because you or somebody else can't handle it, doesn't mean he shouldn't build it.
To the original poster, build your 4 bore. Take your time, research, and have fun shooting it! I sure would!

Repeat severe recoil can cause a brain bleed and death.

When experimenting with my 4-bore I had and incident.  Use 1F powder in these beasts!  Instead, I used a hefty charge of 3F.  The recoil was vicious.  I saw a white flash, but like getting hit in the head, not from smoke.  After the shot I tried to make a joke.  It came out incoherent and slurred.  I guess that was a mild concussion.  I do think causing a stroke is a real possibility.  Notice how fighters and football players have dementia issues later in life?  That is attributed to concussions.  Going deaf from shooting is tolerable, I draw the line at senility.   

[smylee grouch]

The recoil of that 12 bore mentioned was 200 lbs. and the recoil of this 4 bore is supposed to be 300 lbs. A 50% increase does not fall into the recoil immune range of that 12 bore. But I predict that 4 bore just wont be fired much with full power loads anyway.

[Dphariss]

Please notice in that cased gun there is an ABSENCE of a drum and nipple and for good
reason. That style of breech is designed to minimize the pressure on the base of the nipple
and a drum and nipple is a lawsuit waiting to happen.If it blows out it's an oddly shaped
projectile that will be capable of severe injuries or death to anyone it hits.
The IS a GOOD reason NO English rifle was made with a drum and nipple.
Bob Roller

Or breaks off at the rebate if made of cold rolled steel.
W. Greener talks of these things in "The Gun" in a derogatory way. Done by blacksmiths and such etc. Its a very poor way to do a percussion gun but in America cheap has always been important.


Dan

[Shovelbuck]

[Repeat severe recoil can cause a brain bleed and death.

Of course it can. Since the OP says he's shot high recoiling guns, I'm sure he knows the hazards. His choice.

[bob in the woods]

Building anything for fun is always a reason unto itself. If wondering about usefulness, or perhaps better said, employing the full capabilities of a gun, there is that undeniable relationship between weight and bore size.  In terms of hunting usefulness my cut off is 10 bore.  I use one, and have never ceased to be amazed at it's lethality.
My max load is 140 gr FFg.  With wheel weight cast balls, I have shot through a 400 # black bear , shoulder to shoulder and out again, dropping it on the spot.  Honestly, for most North American hunting a 12 bore would probably do just as well. The 10 just throws shot a little better IMO if hunting geese.   As far as handling extreme recoil is concerned, we all have an upper limit , and I know mine from seeing the cumulative effects it had on my 1000 yard  BP match results. A P.A.S.T. shield solved that problem, but I have read  historical studies which concurred with Dan P.   There is a level of recoil to which no one is immune. That's why my 4 bore sits on a swivel !

[Mike Brooks]

[Repeat severe recoil can cause a brain bleed and death.

Of course it can. Since the OP says he's shot high recoiling guns, I'm sure he knows the hazards. His choice, not our job to be the internet Nazi safety police.

 I never automatically assume anybody here knows anything. Guns with vicious recoil will create other problems besides brain injury. Selous shot large  cut down 4 bore wild fowling guns in Africa to harvest ivory.  later in his hunting career after he went to BP cartridge guns He was quoted that the recoil of the big 4 bores caused him to flinch so bad through the rest of his career that he had to get with in 20 yards to even hit an elephant anywhere in the kill zone. Now that's a flinch! Read Capstick's "Death in the tall grass" (I think that's the one). All about early period African hunters. Fascinating read.
 Don't boxers have a higher degree of Parkinson's due to repeated head blows? Wasn't there a study on that? or was it football players? Or both...Too many blows to the head to remember.
 Personally I look forward to watching this gun go together and seeing the end result and watch him take a few full power shots with it. I'm glad it's his brain , not mine.
 I have done some pattern work years ago with a  10 bore turk gun with a 50" barrel I built, probably weighed 8-9lbs. 140grs 2ff and 2 5/8oz shot with a full jug. Tremendous pattern. Every time I pulled the trigger it was like getting hit in the head with a wet mop. I managed 8 shots with it and quite as I had a helluva headache. Next day I could hardly move . Every muscle in my body from the waist up was stiff and sore. Took days to get over it.

[snapper]

I have my 12 bore rifle sighted in with 86 grains of 2F swiss.   Plenty for the dangerous game I shoot here in Iowa.   Recoil is not an issue with this load.

The deer I shot with it last year knocked it over, then it got up and ran 25 yards before it died.

Fleener