Author Topic: Flint Hawken Question  (Read 10579 times)

Offline WestBranchSusquehanna

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Flint Hawken Question
« on: February 04, 2020, 04:12:42 PM »
Here in Pennsylvania, we have a generous "primitive" flintlock season right after Christmas.  I have been wanting to build a Hawkens especially for this season,  Got the barrel, rib and half stock.  Need lock, and the rest of the hardware. 
Now there are plenty of reproductions with flint but, are they historically correct?  Was there ever a half stock with flint built by the Hawkens?  And if so, what was the hardwire?  Brass, iron, Pins, wedges, etc.  Maybe those out West have more insight to these questions.
Thanks, Michael
Cheers, Michael Kuriga

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2020, 05:06:17 PM »
“Was there ever?”  We will never know if a halfstock flint Hawken rifle was ever made. None have surfaced yet. Let’s just say if there was one or 5 or 10 they didn’t survive. So you’re in “building what might have been” territory, which is fun or disquieting depending on your point of view. Interested in why you chose a halfstock. Just like them?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Daryl

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2020, 09:47:55 PM »
Taylor built one, years ago, so I guess there is at least one.  ;)
Maybe if he sees this thread, he'll respond with the picture of it.


Daryl

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2020, 09:55:20 PM »
Here in Pennsylvania, we have a generous "primitive" flintlock season right after Christmas.  I have been wanting to build a Hawkens especially for this season,  Got the barrel, rib and half stock.  Need lock, and the rest of the hardware. 
Now there are plenty of reproductions with flint but, are they historically correct?  Was there ever a half stock with flint built by the Hawkens?  And if so, what was the hardwire?  Brass, iron, Pins, wedges, etc.  Maybe those out West have more insight to these questions.
Thanks, Michael

Take a look at the thread on the 4 bore gun and see what a really fine halfstock flintlock rifle looks like.
Bob Roller

Offline Roger B

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2020, 12:16:18 AM »
Since there are no known flint Hawken halfstocks, the question to ask is; "Do I care"? If you just want a nice hunting gun, build it & be happy. No many Hawkens in PA anyhow. If anyone wants to gripe at you, shoot a bigger deer than theirs.
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2020, 12:49:57 AM »
Hi,
Are there any surviving Hawken guns that predate the 1830s?  Are there any surviving flintlocks or even percussion converted flintlock Hawken guns?

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2020, 01:07:21 AM »
The Hawken bro's, especially Jake, were building rifles for the western trade during the flint era, so it is unlikely that they never built flint rifles.  Sadly, none have survived.  This discussion has a long history of its own.
Frankly, the lack of an extant flint Hawken rifle doesn't slow me down.  I've built lots of them and they are a handy hunting rifle for sure.

For deer, a 1" AF octagonal barrel about 34" long inb .50 or .54 cal works well.  Choose an English flint lock such as L & R's Ashmore lock and iron (steel) furniture.  Brass furntiture would not be anymore wrong than the ignition system, so if brass turns you on, use it.  Iron was more common historically for sure.
Here's a few from my bench.









D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Frank

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2020, 02:09:25 AM »
Hi,
Are there any surviving Hawken guns that predate the 1830s?  Are there any surviving flintlocks or even percussion converted flintlock Hawken guns?

dave

There is a fullstock hawken in the Smithsonian that is an obvious conversion from flint to percussion.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2020, 02:29:17 AM »
So what are good books on the Hawken rifle these days? There is Baird's book and Gordon's Great Gunmakers. I have the former and can't afford the latter. Anything that has some of the more recent research/discoveries that is available to non-millionaires?
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2020, 02:31:32 AM »
Mountain Meek is helpful for free.
Andover, Vermont

Offline alacran

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2020, 02:39:25 AM »
There is a fullstock hawken in the Smithsonian that is an obvious conversion from flint to percussion.

All that proves is that the lock was converted.
Talking to Art Ressel at Friendship last June, He told me he was invited to inspect the rifle at the Smithsonian. He told me he was allowed
to disassemble it. He said that there was no indication that said rifle was ever a flintlock. If you look at the photos of that gun you will see that there is no cut out for a cock on the lock panel.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 09:28:46 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2020, 03:02:10 AM »
I think these are shots from an auction site. I sure hope so. Best candidate. Has the notch in the stock for the flint cock. Note the guard is a shotgun guard with integral front and rear extensions. Fixed breech. Tang long and not tapered, elongated hourglass shape. Fullstock 









Andover, Vermont

Offline WestBranchSusquehanna

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2020, 03:44:55 AM »
Thanks to all who responded.  Seems like Hawkens will stir up the pot as to what is correct or not.  So, yes, I will build what I would like in the gun and this one seems to be the best candidate.  A flinter and correct hardware. 
May the conversation continue and hopefully authenticated originals will show up some time again.
Cheers,
Michael;
I think these are shots from an auction site. I sure hope so. Best candidate. Has the notch in the stock for the flint cock. Note the guard is a shotgun guard with integral front and rear extensions. Fixed breech. Tang long and not tapered, elongated hourglass shape. Fullstock 









Cheers, Michael Kuriga

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2020, 03:54:42 AM »
I'm going off memory here so don't quote it as gospel. I do remember seeing a Hawken somewhere about a year ago, and it was a credible source, that the lockplate was definitely from a flintlock converted. IIRC, it did have the percussion snail though, so I logged it down to the known fact that the Hawken brothers used any lock that was serviceable, which has been noted by several of you gentlemen in the know.,
Psalms 144

Offline redheart

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2020, 06:24:15 AM »
“Was there ever?”  We will never know if a halfstock flint Hawken rifle was ever made. None have surfaced yet. Let’s just say if there was one or 5 or 10 they didn’t survive. So you’re in “building what might have been” territory, which is fun or disquieting depending on your point of view. Interested in why you chose a halfstock. Just like them?
I have to agree with Rich. If you want to build one for a conversation piece or shake people up a little bit, go for it, but you seem to have an interest in being somewhat historically correct and if so you might be pushing it a little with a flint halfstock Hawken. The fullstock flint Hawken seems to be somewhat accepted as being a possible occurrence and if well executed makes a very attractive rifle. If you reenact the fur trade period they seem to be looked down on as kind of a fantasy piece, whether that is true or not. Just sayin. No disrespect meant to any of you fine gentlemen. 

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2020, 06:28:03 AM »
Old Jake did work at Harpers Ferry before going to St. Louis and they made a lot of half stock flinters there. Just saying.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2020, 06:57:08 AM »
Considering that Alexander Forsyth had the first patent for a percussion cap in 1807 and J Hawken opened his shop in 1815 how long would it take for percussion to be prevalent in the west?  It would be a pretty good assumption that Hawken may have built flintlock rifles. Considering how these rifles were used and how few were made overall its not surprising that there are no surviving Hawken flintlocks.
Rob
 

Offline RAT

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2020, 07:20:37 AM »
Half stock English style dueling pistols were popular in America shortly after 1800. Many examples in flint survive. It always seemed odd to me that existing rifles in this style have not survived. Was this simply a matter of national pride and preference for American style long rifles? I've thought about making one... Basically an English half stock rifle with a crescent buttplate.

One thing I think people make a mistake with... They incorporate 1840's-1860's Hawken features into a supposed 1820's rifle. Specifically, the trigger plate and trigger guard. The long tang... with 2 bolts through the wrist into a long trigger plate... with the trigger guard screwed into the trigger plate...are late features.

Look at the Creamer full-stock rifle made for William Clark (posted on the site) for a closer example of a St. Louis made rifle of the 1820's.

In fact I'm going to use this opportunity... I believe we should start looking at St. Louis as a defined gunmaking school. There are specific features (iron-mounted, butt plate shape, scroll trigger guard, etc.) that seem to be common to the surrounding area and not used elsewhere until much later.     
Bob

Offline RAT

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2020, 07:35:35 AM »
Also remember that Jacob Hawken's first partner in St. Louis was James Lakenan. Lakenan was from new England. Interestingly he was working at the government arsenal at Richmond VA at the same time as Jacob Hawken was at the arsenal at Harpers Ferry VA.

I believe they met while in Virginia which explains the later partnership in St. Louis. Lakenan may have provided a new English/English style influence to the relationship which influenced the school.

Also... If you look at the cheek piece style of 1830's era Hawken rifles you see similarity to war of 1812 era English trade rifles given to native allies in Canada. I believe they had access to captured examples while at the government arsenals and were influenced by them.   
Bob

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2020, 08:35:36 PM »
Hi,
Are there any surviving Hawken guns that predate the 1830s?  Are there any surviving flintlocks or even percussion converted flintlock Hawken guns?

dave

We really don't know, Dave, since only one surviving J&S Hawken rifle has a reliable date on it--the Atchison Hawken.

The Peterson might be a candidate.  It has a nipple bolster that is little more than a drum like feature possibly forge welded or brazed on the barrel.  It looks rather primative like the Hawken brothers were experimenting with ways of making a percussion rifle.  This rifle has some other "early" features and easily dates to the early 1830s.  Could it have been made before 1830?  Possibly, we just don't know.
Phil Meek

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2020, 09:34:36 PM »
There is a fullstock hawken in the Smithsonian that is an obvious conversion from flint to percussion.

All that proves is that the lock was converted.

Talking to Art Ressel at Friendship last June, He told me he was invited to inspect the rifle at the Smithsonian. He told me he was allowed to disassemble it. He said that there was no indication that said rifle was ever a flintlock. If you look at the photos of that gun you will see that there is no cut out for a cock on the lock panel.

I was wondering if Mr. Ressel shared with you any of his thoughts about the drum and nipple on the Smithsonian Hawken?



Unfortunately, the photo above isn't clear enough for me to tell if there is cut out for a cock on the lock panel.  But it does show what appears to be a typical English style flint hooked breech.
Phil Meek

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2020, 10:31:20 PM »
Many possible explanations for this one but it’s a late rifle. May be quite different in a dozen ways from any J&S Hawken flintlock rifle.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2020, 10:46:56 PM »
Hi,
Are there any surviving Hawken guns that predate the 1830s?  Are there any surviving flintlocks or even percussion converted flintlock Hawken guns?

dave

We really don't know, Dave, since only one surviving J&S Hawken rifle has a reliable date on it--the Atchison Hawken.

The Peterson might be a candidate.  It has a nipple bolster that is little more than a drum like feature possibly forge welded or brazed on the barrel.  It looks rather primative like the Hawken brothers were experimenting with ways of making a percussion rifle.  This rifle has some other "early" features and easily dates to the early 1830s.  Could it have been made before 1830?  Possibly, we just don't know.


Years ago I made a lock like this for Tom Dawson and he made a copy of this rifle.
I think it was in the early 70's.
Bob Roller

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2020, 03:04:35 AM »
Considering that Alexander Forsyth had the first patent for a percussion cap in 1807 and J Hawken opened his shop in 1815 how long would it take for percussion to be prevalent in the west?  It would be a pretty good assumption that Hawken may have built flintlock rifles. Considering how these rifles were used and how few were made overall its not surprising that there are no surviving Hawken flintlocks.
Rob

Forsyth patented a percussion system that used a powdered fulminate, not a percussion cap.  Forsyth's percussion system on longarms and pistols is referred to as the "scent-bottle" system because of the shape of the magazine that held the powder.

After Forsyth's invention, there was a lot of experimentation of different types of percussion systems in Europe and England.  Besides the loose fulminating powder like Forsyth's, people tried fulminate in flat paper patches similar to those used in modern cap guns, fulminate in pellets, and fulminate in metal tubes.  Some English inventors and gun makers also experimented with fulminate in metallic caps.  Forsyth successfully defended his patent in court.  Once his patent expired in 1821, the field was open to gun makers.

Joshua Shaw, an Englishman who immigrated to America in 1817, claimed to have invented the copper percussion cap in 1814, but didn't patent it in England--likely becuase of the Forsyth patent was still in force.  He did apply for and receive a US patent in 1822.

The mid-1820s saw a lot of activity in England and the US in the development of arms using copper percussion caps.  In the US, Henry Deringer was making percussion pistols as early as 1826.  By 1830, arms using percussion caps were predominate in England and on the East Coast of the US.  They also became readily available in St. Louis in that year, according to newspaper advertisements.


The Hawken bro's, especially Jake, were building rifles for the western trade during the flint era, so it is unlikely that they never built flint rifles.  Sadly, none have survived.

Just to build on what Sapergia says, Rich Pierce has posted some photos of what may turn out to be a flint J&S Hawken.  It hasn't been written up yet and if someone is working on its provenance, that hasn't been published yet, either.  Knowing Rich is a scientist, he might say it hasn't been "peer reviewed".  There was another candidate for a flint Hawken presented in a Buckskin Report article back in October 1979 by Edward S. Kollar.  Unfortunately, it was destroyed in a house fire before it could be examined by experts and is still a big question mark today.

We do have some period documents that provide some evidence, though.  While Jack B Tykal was doing research on a book about the mountain man Etienne Provost, he discovered a letter written by Kenneth McKenzie of Fort Tecumseh to Pierre Choteau, Jr. in St. Louis and dated January 2, 1829, requesting Chouteau to include in the spring shipment "two rifles similar in all respects to the one made by Hawkins for Provost" (Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Summer 1983, pg 2 and Etienne Provost: Man of the Mountains by Jack B Tykal, 1989, pg 87).

Kenneth McKenzie probably saw Etienne Provost with his Hawken rifle sometime in the fall or winter of 1828 and possibly earlier.  Backtracking Provost's activities, he had been in St. Louis for the last half of 1827, and gone up the Missouri River in employ of McKenzie's Upper Missouri Outfit early in 1828.  There is some evidence that McKenzie sent Provost on to the 1828 Rendezvous to encourage the independent mountain men to come to the new Fort Floyd (later to be called Fort Union) to trade their furs.  Provost then headed for the Crows to encourage them to come to the new fort to trade and to conduct his fall and winter hunt in Crow country.  In the spring of 1829, Provost was headed back down the Missouri to St. Louis where he arrived in late July.

Etienne Provost probably acquired his Hawken rifle in St. Louis sometime in the last half of 1827, though there is no record of the purchase.  Considering the time frame, it was in all likelihood a flintlock.

In August 1829, Provost outfitted for another trapping excursion in the mountains.  This time in partnership with the American Fur Company.  Among the various items necessary for a trapping/trading venture for he and three men in his employ, he purchased "2 rifles, Hawkins & Co., $50.00" from the company.  These were probably flintlock rifles, too, and based on the price of $25 each, were full stock rifles.

So we do have documented evidence of J&S Hawken rifles going to the mountains prior to 1830.  The time frame and price would indicate that they were full stock, flintlock rifles.
Phil Meek

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flint Hawken Question
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2020, 03:49:32 AM »
Great discussion.  Some reason that mountain men probably all wanted the latest technology, of course!

Flintlock rifles were being taken west through the 1830s and into the 1840s in large numbers. The top end, the free trappers, the brigade leaders, the fort booshway probably were more likely to have the latest, best, and most costly equipment. But the trappers who signed up for a season or two with a grade probably could afford or were supplied with durable, functional equipment like flintlock trade guns.

It’s not clear what class or price range a very early J&S Hawken in flintlock would fall into, but if we could go back with a time machine, my money would be on it being a simple, rugged, fullstock rifle not all that distinguished from others going west. I’d not expect it to resemble later Hawken rifles all that closely.
Andover, Vermont