Author Topic: Natural materials for smooth bore  (Read 7590 times)

Banjoman

  • Guest
Natural materials for smooth bore
« on: February 06, 2020, 05:19:08 AM »
My search for a flintlock longarm has led me to a 62 caliber fusil de chasse which I plan to use squirrel hunting.  I have used natural materials such as grass and wasp nest for wads in my tower pistol with adequate results.  I'd like to hear what natural materials some of you have used for wads in smooth bore long guns and how did it work.  My goal is a period correct shot load.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2020, 09:29:41 AM »
I naturally get all my shotgun wads from Trackofthewolf.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Banjoman

  • Guest
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2020, 12:24:21 PM »
 Well naturally!

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2260
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2020, 03:21:40 PM »
I have used tow over the powder and leaves over shot. Managed to kill the three squirrels I shot at that day. Never did pattern that combination. Two of the squirrels were less than 20 yards away, but one was about 30 yards up a hickory tree.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Banjoman

  • Guest
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2020, 06:27:46 PM »
That's kinda what I'm thinking since I have some tow. Are there any books out that address topics like this?

Offline LynnC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2020, 07:50:26 PM »
Just a thought. If green leaves are used as wadding over powder then shot, do you think the water in the leaves would be forced out upon firing and help keep the barrel clean?
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2020, 10:10:38 PM »
I wouldn't think so, Lynn, but with such "loose" loads, it would not make any difference.  Even when using
thin overshot cards between powder and shot and overshot, there is no appreciable buildup impinging on loading.
I have done this, shooting up to 20 shots out of my 20 bore, using only thin B wads, 2 over powder and 1 over the shot
and had no difficulty loading all 20 shots.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2020, 06:44:37 AM »
Daryl,

Green ivy leaves work V well for wadding over powder, but not for leaving loaded overnight, or the green leaves dampen the powder.
They were all we used when duck and wood-pigeon shooting over laid fields of grain before harvest. No chance of fires.
The leaves are rolled up into a ball and stuffed down and produce similar results to proper wads.  The ducks were just as dead.
As I've said before, this was told me by an old gunsmith about 50years ago and has worked this long for me.

Lynne,
To me, the barrel seemed to stay clean enough when using green leaves. Never recall a problem, not like when a stiff card wad was used.  Or cork. Cork (dry) can get real hard to ram home.
Banjoman,
"An Essay On Shooting"  (1793 I Think) has a list of good wadding, and some that were worthless.  Moss thet hangs from trees works V well.  Paper also good, rolled up and rammed home, but some fire risk in dry weather.

An old mate back home , (Very good gun resteroer too) when a young bloke, had an Old neighbour who liked his partridge shooting.
Over there, turnip fields are a favourite spot for holding partridges.
When he set out, he'd pull a smaller turnip (swede) and cut a slice a good quarter of an inch thick.  After the powder was poured home, he'd lay the slice of turnip overt he muzzle, and whack it with his palm, and drive a plug of turnip into the bore.    He never used anything else when shooting in  turnip fields.
(Bit like a "Spud -gun"!)

Banjoman

  • Guest
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2020, 02:26:46 PM »
That's interesting. Thanks!

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2020, 05:43:09 PM »
I should have said, that in the 18th C there was something of a dearth of patent wadding.  This latter showed up in the 19th century.

Before that, a wad punch was supplied when a gun was bought, and a sheet of pasteboard.
 Gunmakers kept sheets of pasteboard in stock for customers.
The fact that we now judge "organic and free" stuff for wads as something a little odd, does not detract from the fact that "odd stuff" was the most common in the 18th C and earlier.  (packing from and old saddle was good)
By the 19th C decent and good wadding could be purchased from gunmakers. 
Some of the best was anointed around the edges with a mercury ointment which loaded easily all day, removed leading completely, and likely added flavour to your sandwiches at lunch -time!

Offline LynnC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2092
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2020, 05:51:03 PM »
Thanks for the replies. This has been a very interesting thread. I have 2 smoothbores to develop shot loads for and have much info to experiment with......Lynn
The price of eggs got so darn high, I bought chickens......

Banjoman

  • Guest
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2020, 05:59:04 PM »
Same here. 

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2020, 10:24:52 PM »
Some have found that if un-choked, light weight wads between powder and shot works best. Some use the thin overshot cards only, 1 to 3 between shot and powder.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2020, 09:12:43 AM »
Daryl,

In Hawker's day, wads no thicker than 1/3 the diameter of the bore were touted as best.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2020, 09:45:41 PM »
Well, whatever works best. Back in the day, "they" also thought a gun constricted in the middle of the bore and more open at both ends, shot harder as well. (1860)
Perhaps it did, simply due to the choke in the middle of the barrel, restricting wad flight as a modern choke performs, or due to the enlarging of the bore, the pressure
was completely bled off so no muzzle blast to send the wads through the shot column.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online Bigmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1416
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2020, 12:43:18 AM »
Watch out, those wounded squirrels bite!!  Have a nice stick / club handy.  I learned the hard way.

Offline Levy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 787
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2020, 07:46:05 AM »
I've mentioned this artifact before and took it to the Cumberland Show last year.  in 2005 an English trade gun (Carolina gun, signed Williams) was recovered from the Suwannee River in FL.  It was loaded with a ball and the wadding was either palmetto or palm tree fiber from the trunk of the tree.  I don't know what was used over the ball, but that's what was between the powder and ball.  James Levy 
James Levy

Banjoman

  • Guest
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2020, 03:12:38 PM »
Thanks Levy!  That's interesting.  Since I pour balls and shot from scrap lead and use flint found on the farm, I thought it would be cool to use wads 'off the land' and not something store bought.  I have tried several things and am looking for new/old ideas.  I also make my own accoutrements such as possibles bags, measures, ram rods, tools, knives, ball bags, horns, etc.  I haven't made a gun yet, maybe later.  Store bought items may be convenient, but I think handmade items are much more interesting.

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2020, 05:59:26 PM »
Daryl,

The boring was called "Friction and relief".
It is roughly as you describe, but in very small measures.
A sporting gun could be made slightly larger at the breech to help retard the charge until it built up pressure, then a longish length of parallel bore, then, opened up a little for a few inches  at the muzzle a few thousandths.

The opened up muzzle slightly reduced pressure, to prevent blowing patterns.
Hawker in his book measures duck gun bores and patterns them on paper as well as penetration tests.
He chose duck guns, as the larger bores were easier to measure, but also includes a few favourite small guns of his own.

A game -gun could also be made a little Tighter at the chamber end to retard the charge as well.

Offline Notchy Bob

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2020, 09:47:06 PM »
I'll confess, I have not patterned my muzzleloading smoothbores, but I have experimented with natural wadding.  You read a lot about tow (flax or hemp fiber) being used for this purpose.  I've tried it; it works.  I will say that tow is also used as tinder.  Much of the tow (nearly always flax fiber) offered by vendors and sutlers has been treated with a fire retardant, whether they know it or not.  Obviously, this would make lousy tinder, and may be the reason some folks have difficulty getting a fire going with flint and steel.  On the other hand, tow treated with a fire retardant sounds like a pretty good idea for wadding in your firelock, especially if the woods are dry where you hunt. 

Dr. Levy reported an archaeological find in his post above; a musket was wadded with palmetto fiber.  I had heard this before, and I have tried it (I live in Florida and palmetto is a very common plant).  The fiber is much like coconut fiber, which should not be surprising.  It works very well for wadding, and makes excellent tinder.  I made a gadget years ago, which is basically a foot-long rod of 5/16" steel with a 2" right angle hook bent in one end and a handle of antler on the other.  The hook is somewhat flattened on the end.  I made it for hunting arrows lost under grass or leaves, but I was amazed at how useful it is:  back-scratcher, fire-poker, lightweight "pickeroon," and also palmetto fiber gatherer.  It works great.  If you want to gather palmetto fiber, you need to go into a palmetto thicket.  Be prepared to come face to face with ticks, scorpions, "black widders," and various species of snakes.

Spanish moss, whether green (gray and fuzzy) or dead (black and fibrous; looks like pubic hair... we're all adults here), serves well as wadding.  The "black moss" is also excellent tinder.

My dad, who was from Alabama, told me hornet's nest was the preferred wadding in his area.  Dad was born on a subsistence farm in 1907.  Muzzleloaders were in general use in that area until well after World War I.  I know wasp nest works, because I have tried it, but Dad specifically said hornet's nest.  There is a difference.  Wasp nest is soft and compressible, while hornet nest is tough and leathery.

I have used leather wads.  I first read about this in Muzzle Blasts many years ago.  A 5/8" arch punch, as used for leatherwork, cuts perfect wads for a 20 gauge muzzleloader.  This is a good way to use up scraps of leather which are too small for anything else.

George Emmons was a late 19th century military officer and amateur ethnographer.  He wrote monographs on the Tlingit and Tahltan people of the Pacific Northwest.  He reported both of these groups used shredded bark as wadding in their trade muskets.  I'm guessing this was inner bark of the cedar.  Meanwhile, George Bent wrote that the Southern Cheyenne people used shredded willow bark for wadding.  I have used shredded (actually pounded, with a wooden hand maul) inner bark of the local southern red cedar for wadding and for tinder.  It works very well for both.

I guess all of that is more than two cents worth.  Maybe worth a nickel...

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline Mike from OK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2020, 10:49:35 PM »
I'll confess, I have not patterned my muzzleloading smoothbores, but I have experimented with natural wadding.  You read a lot about tow (flax or hemp fiber) being used for this purpose.  I've tried it; it works.  I will say that tow is also used as tinder.  Much of the tow (nearly always flax fiber) offered by vendors and sutlers has been treated with a fire retardant, whether they know it or not.  Obviously, this would make lousy tinder, and may be the reason some folks have difficulty getting a fire going with flint and steel.  On the other hand, tow treated with a fire retardant sounds like a pretty good idea for wadding in your firelock, especially if the woods are dry where you hunt. 

Dr. Levy reported an archaeological find in his post above; a musket was wadded with palmetto fiber.  I had heard this before, and I have tried it (I live in Florida and palmetto is a very common plant).  The fiber is much like coconut fiber, which should not be surprising.  It works very well for wadding, and makes excellent tinder.  I made a gadget years ago, which is basically a foot-long rod of 5/16" steel with a 2" right angle hook bent in one end and a handle of antler on the other.  The hook is somewhat flattened on the end.  I made it for hunting arrows lost under grass or leaves, but I was amazed at how useful it is:  back-scratcher, fire-poker, lightweight "pickeroon," and also palmetto fiber gatherer.  It works great.  If you want to gather palmetto fiber, you need to go into a palmetto thicket.  Be prepared to come face to face with ticks, scorpions, "black widders," and various species of snakes.

Spanish moss, whether green (gray and fuzzy) or dead (black and fibrous; looks like pubic hair... we're all adults here), serves well as wadding.  The "black moss" is also excellent tinder.

My dad, who was from Alabama, told me hornet's nest was the preferred wadding in his area.  Dad was born on a subsistence farm in 1907.  Muzzleloaders were in general use in that area until well after World War I.  I know wasp nest works, because I have tried it, but Dad specifically said hornet's nest.  There is a difference.  Wasp nest is soft and compressible, while hornet nest is tough and leathery.

I have used leather wads.  I first read about this in Muzzle Blasts many years ago.  A 5/8" arch punch, as used for leatherwork, cuts perfect wads for a 20 gauge muzzleloader.  This is a good way to use up scraps of leather which are too small for anything else.

George Emmons was a late 19th century military officer and amateur ethnographer.  He wrote monographs on the Tlingit and Tahltan people of the Pacific Northwest.  He reported both of these groups used shredded bark as wadding in their trade muskets.  I'm guessing this was inner bark of the cedar.  Meanwhile, George Bent wrote that the Southern Cheyenne people used shredded willow bark for wadding.  I have used shredded (actually pounded, with a wooden hand maul) inner bark of the local southern red cedar for wadding and for tinder.  It works very well for both.

I guess all of that is more than two cents worth.  Maybe worth a nickel...

Notchy Bob

Awesome info Bob. Thank you.

Mike

Banjoman

  • Guest
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2020, 12:15:12 AM »
Yes, definitely.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2020, 03:48:56 AM »
Just a thought. If green leaves are used as wadding over powder then shot, do you think the water in the leaves would be forced out upon firing and help keep the barrel clean?
Or dampen fouling from the previous shot and ring the bore. Water and powder fouling left for any time is not a good mix.


Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3477
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2020, 05:42:55 AM »
Dan,

What Are you talking about?

How many use spit as a lube and manage to not ring the bore??  Green leaves have very little water in them.   Sufficient to not be a fire problem, and that's what we used them for.

Best,
Richard.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15839
Re: Natural materials for smooth bore
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2020, 09:08:35 AM »
We don't use water based or spit lubes for hunting, though.  A load with water based lube is never in the bore longer than a few minutes.
Guys that do, rust their tubes.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V