Need pics of shot pouches/shooting bags associated with fowling pieces...

[Brokennock]

Hey folks, once again, I need some help.

I am looking for pictures of, paintings would be okay if detailed, of some shot pouches/shooting bags. But, a little more specific than usual. My period being pre-AWI I've been following the "smaller" is more accurate school, which is true to an extent. But, many of the examples given for this are bags associated with rifle culture from Pennsylvania and Virginia on south. And while I have learned to prefer the smaller bag, and I only carry in it what is needed to make the gun shoot, these items are a few more for a smooth bore or fowling piece than for a rifle.
So, I am seeking pictures of shot pouches/shooting bags (the over the shoulder type, I've already got the Lyman belt pouch as my next project) that are extant to: the period of F.&I. thru about 1785ish, the New England Colonies, and are associated with fowling pieces or Fusils. Bags from Pennsylvania and New York might be okay too as long as they have some proof of having been paired with a smoothbore.

Thanks.

[EricEwing]

I don’t think what you’re asking for exists. There’s lots of European depictions of hunters carrying smoothbores and accoutrements however. If some sort of historical basis is what you’re dead set on then personally I would start there.

[Bob McBride]

I'm not sure either, and I'm not sure there is a difference. The guys who bought things to last 2 generations or passed things down, or made them thereselves used what they used. Since we've been posting youtube videos in response to questions lately, and ALR member Mike Belliveau has a video close to the subject at hand, i will submit this....

Mike describes basically my view of the hunting pouch in this video...

[James Rogers]

As Eric states, the animal you seek is either rare or extinct for your area. The Lyman type is good for all arms IMO.
As I mentioned on another board, your accoutrements are not going to be many unless you are carrying a mixture of wads and cards not in the period you are working with.

Here are a few shoulder bags I would use for the period from paintings. Unfortunately I have more period images of belt bags than shoulder bags. All three images contain smooth bored guns. The first close up picture is a crop of a painting done in VA c.1780 IIRC

[Brokennock]

I'm not sure what I'm looking for exists either. But it is worth trying to find out. A lot of the pictures/paintings I've found that obviously show a bag paired with a fowling piece or smoothbore of some kind are usually from the wrong "side of the pond," so to speak.
I don't doubt that the bags would not be much different, probably not much bigger if at all, but maybe organized differently, than from a bag paired with a rifle. I prefer a smaller bag, worn quite high under my right arm when hunting, but keeping stuff organized so it is found easily when needed is a challenge if carrying stuff for both roundball and shot.

Thanks to all.

[John SMOthermon]

Broken, I know your looking for Period Correct / Historically Correct photos, which I can’t help with ...

But here’s  what I’ve come too like for my smoothbore shooting , a simple double pouch seems too work well for me.

[Collector]

I think a small double pouch is ideal for the flintlock smooth bore fowler or smooth-rifle, for day hunting.  The two (2) compartments don't have to be completely separated all the way to the top of the bag.  Rather I prefer a bag, with two (2) compartments, constructed of a stiffer leather, that allows your whole hand to get into the bag, easily and then to the front, or to the rear compartment.

I don't think I ever carried more than I needed for ten (10) shots at the very most, (a lesson learned as a 12yo.) for a day of upland bird shooting and generally less than that (maybe 6 shots) for just a morning, or afternoon of hunting.  I've never been a fan of carrying more weight than necessary.  If deer hunting, just enough for a couple-three shots, at most.

And yeah, I have just such a bag in the Classifieds.

Good luck!     

[T.C.Albert]

I thought for sure the Merril Lindsay
Book “ the New England Gun” would have a few,
But after thumbing through a copy I am
Surprised to say that it doesn’t.

Though not New England specific that I know of,
I have an original water color of three bird hunters
From the period and it doesn’t show any accoutrements
Either. As detailed as the image it that’s a bit surprising to.
I wonder if it is accurate and they carried their flasks in
Their coat pockets?

Then again, many early hunting scenes do show
Hunters wearing hanging shot snakes or flasks,
But bags are nearly as commonly pictured.
TC

[Brokennock]

I thought for sure the Merril Lindsay
Book “ the New England Gun” would have a few,
But after thumbing through a copy I am
Surprised to say that it doesn’t.

Though not New England specific that I know of,
I have an original water color of three bird hunters
From the period and it doesn’t show any accoutrements
Either. As detailed as the image it that’s a bit surprising to.
I wonder if it is accurate and they carried their flasks in
Their coat pockets?

Then again, many early hunting scenes do show
Hunters wearing hanging shot snakes or flasks,
But bags are nearly as commonly pictured.
TC

Neat picture. If in England ,the shooters probably would not have been carrying their own bags, shot, etc. for a pheasant shoot. They would have had leaders to load their guns for them.

I will look and see if I can find the book you mentioned. Even without the pics I seek, it sounds like something I'd be interested in. Thank you.

[thecapgunkid]

For those of you who are surfing through this thread, or new, or on the verge of a new project, consider the following;

• • Check out the names of the folks who added posts and look for their names in Accoutrements threads.  It's hard to go wrong with what they write.
    
    Get on YouTube and look for duellist 1954.  That's Mike Belliveau.  At his worst he is very entertaining and at his best he will give you an idea that will stick.  I've never met Mike but have banged around several of the events he attends.
    
    Since one of the most valuable assets of living history is other people, get several together at the range and do a Stake Shoot.  That's where you post a two by Four out at about thirty yards and everybody bangs away at in a timed event  it until it is cut in half. Shoot out of this bag the way Mike B. does.  Without the risk of injury or death or being scalped, that type of shoot is pretty close to what a battle might have been like, especially if you can do one in the woods.
    
    Find Lem Lyman's diary and read it.  Also dig up Rufus Putnam, Jabez Fitch and Lucas Gridley. Goes great with coffee.
    
  I have posted this little belt bag and  shot out of it and loaded it up with jerky, fire starting, cleaning and diary stuff for about thirty years and would never have thought to call it a Lemual Lyman bag, which is probably what it is.
  
  
  
  
  When you make one, plan it out and adapt it to what you carry or want to do before you start cutting up the leather.  I guarantee that is what folks like Lemual Lyman did.
  

[Mike from OK]

I'm kicking around the idea of making a Lyman style bag... I think mine will be a bit bigger than the pattern Mike Beliveau shows at the end of his Lyman bag video... And I plan to adapt it for use with a shoulder strap instead of belt carried. If I recall correctly, Mike had his on a shoulder strap as well.

I'm working on a bag right now that has the basis of it's design in the North Hampton bag in TC Albert's book... But being me, I had to change it up a bit and adapt it to what I wanted.

Mike

[John SMOthermon]

Here’s a couple I made, 5” x 7” .  Both are made as belt bags.

[Brokennock]

At some point I plan to do as exact a copy of the size and shape of the Lyman bag as I can. I would like to wet mold it to add some shape and volume once it is stitched together. Any ideas as to what to stuff it with. I don't have the talent to file a wood block to shape and keep the taper into the corners symmetrical.

[Bob McBride]

I’d brace it and fill it with shot. Shot is the perfect ‘shaper’ material. IME

[Mike from OK]

Here’s a couple I made, 5” x 7” .  Both are made as belt bags.

Well done John!

Mike

[John SMOthermon]

Thanks Mike, they’re great little bags with more room than I expected for their size..

[backsplash75]

The Lyman bag is just a typical mid 18th c anglo shot bag with New England provenance. There are several English images showing similar bags, likely a mass produced form/style. If you have a folding knife in your pocket that can be used for a screw driver, a bit of wadding and shot/balls in such a pouch plus a horn, you don't really need much else, heck these guys were sometimes using an old pipe bowl to measure powder and shot.

[Mike from OK]

The Lyman bag is just a typical mid 18th c anglo shot bag with New England provenance. There are several English images showing similar bags, likely a mass produced form/style. If you have a folding knife in your pocket that can be used for a screw driver, a bit of wadding and shot/balls in such a pouch plus a horn, you don't really need much else, heck these guys were sometimes using an old pipe bowl to measure powder and shot.

Interesting you should mention using an old pipe bowl... I don't know how old this is. Older than me is a safe assumption.

This was given to me by my wife's cousin. She and her family went on vacation to England and on a whim decided to go "mudlarking"...  Basically you pay to dig through the mud in certain areas. Amateur archaeology I guess you could call it. She found this, cleaned it up and brought it home. When my wife and I went to visit her and she found out I am a pipe smoker she gave it to me.

I have considered using it as a shot/powder measure for my smoothbore. But I am afraid that after banging around in my pouch it would be reduced to white crumbs in short order.



 
Mike

[Hungry Horse]

 I don’t have a picture of this pouch, but maybe my description, and a little experimenting on your part will get you where you want to be. The pouch/ bag is ingenious in it simplicity and design. It is quite literally a strip of buckskin that by the way it is folded, and sewn up creates a double pouch, with attached front flap. Take a strip of paper and fold it to make a pattern for a simple single compartment pouch with attached flap. Now instead of a single pouch make your pattern twice as long. Create a fold where the flap on a single pouch would be, and simply duplicate the pouch again. You’ll wind up with a nice double pouch that can be put down on the ground without it falling over and spilling your gear, and you won’t have to worry about the seam at the bottom of the bag giving out and spreading your gear all over the place. This idea came from an old pouch a friend got at a yard sale years ago. The strap attached where the two bags joined and extended down about three inches or so. There was the remnants of a button hole loop on one end, and a stub of leather strap where some other fastening device once was. I suspect the powder horn was secured to these straps, and hung between the bags.

  Hungry Horse

[Mike from OK]

Pretty slick HH. I believe I can see (in my head) how it would work.

Mike

[backsplash75]

Reclining hunter by Ralph Earl http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-reclining-and-slightly-silly-hunter.html

A Treatise on English Shooting; by GEORGE EDIE, Gent. London 1772


Appendages of the Gun

...a turn-screw should be kept for the use of the lock..."

"A leather pouch, or small canvas bag, to carry the shot; with a tin, or other measure..." p9

"...He should be provided with a spare flint or two, and a strong pocket knife that will serve, on occassion, the purpose of a turn-screw..." p20


From THE Art of Shooting Flying...4th Edition London 1770  "it is a common practice in this country [England] to load with a pipe bowl of powder, and a bowl and a half of shot..." p7

[Brokennock]

The Lyman bag is just a typical mid 18th c anglo shot bag with New England provenance. There are several English images showing similar bags, likely a mass produced form/style. If you have a folding knife in your pocket that can be used for a screw driver, a bit of wadding and shot/balls in such a pouch plus a horn, you don't really need much else, heck these guys were sometimes using an old pipe bowl to measure powder and shot.

Interesting you should mention using an old pipe bowl... I don't know how old this is. Older than me is a safe assumption.

This was given to me by my wife's cousin. She and her family went on vacation to England and on a whim decided to go "mudlarking"...  Basically you pay to dig through the mud in certain areas. Amateur archaeology I guess you could call it. She found this, cleaned it up and brought it home. When my wife and I went to visit her and she found out I am a pipe smoker she gave it to me.

I have considered using it as a shot/powder measure for my smoothbore. But I am afraid that after banging around in my pouch it would be reduced to white crumbs in short order.



 
Mike

That is a great little artifact. Not that there haven't been tons of old pipe peices found, but by virtue of how this one came to be yours. Do not risk it's integrity by using it as a shot and powder measure. Clay pipes are cheap enough, buy one, use it to dirty it a bit, and break off the bowl for use as a measure.

[Brokennock]

I don’t have a picture of this pouch, but maybe my description, and a little experimenting on your part will get you where you want to be. The pouch/ bag is ingenious in it simplicity and design. It is quite literally a strip of buckskin that by the way it is folded, and sewn up creates a double pouch, with attached front flap. Take a strip of paper and fold it to make a pattern for a simple single compartment pouch with attached flap. Now instead of a single pouch make your pattern twice as long. Create a fold where the flap on a single pouch would be, and simply duplicate the pouch again. You’ll wind up with a nice double pouch that can be put down on the ground without it falling over and spilling your gear, and you won’t have to worry about the seam at the bottom of the bag giving out and spreading your gear all over the place. This idea came from an old pouch a friend got at a yard sale years ago. The strap attached where the two bags joined and extended down about three inches or so. There was the remnants of a button hole loop on one end, and a stub of leather strap where some other fastening device once was. I suspect the powder horn was secured to these straps, and hung between the bags.

  Hungry Horse

Maybe I'm not as clueless as I thought. I actually planned put a bag made the same way. I used a large piece of butcher paper to make a model to get the sizes and location of the folds all correct. But, I was thinking it would be better made with a softer leather than I have and normally use, maybe with a cloth liner, so, haven't executed the idea yet.

[Hungry Horse]

 A little creative cutting when making the pattern for the double pouch will allow for a bit wider flap at the top that will keep rain, or other unwanted things out. I’d love to tell you this was something I thought about before cutting my pattern, but alas it was not the case. Good luck.

  Hungry Horse

[Timber]

As other have said, what you are looking for is hard to find.
My bag is small 6x6 and shown is what I carry in to the field/woods a long with a small belt pouch carrying what I would need for the day of hunting. When hunting with round ball then I move the balls from my shot pouch to my belt pouch. I don't use patching so it's either bare ball with some tow over top or a paper cartridge. If I'm hunting small game or turkeys I move my small shot pouch to the belt bag along with a few over shot cards or tow. I have now added a small oilier to the shot pouch. so between the two small pouches I carry everything I need to hunt large or small game plus clean and maintain my Fowler.