Author Topic: European Set Triggers  (Read 957 times)

Offline Ron Scott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
European Set Triggers
« on: February 14, 2020, 09:12:15 PM »
I am acquiring this set of triggers. I am inviting others to submit photos of similar items.




« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 09:16:38 PM by Ron Scott »

Online Robert Wolfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 828
  • Great X Grandpa
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2020, 09:55:15 PM »
I think it is interesting that the inside is decorated very nicely and yet file marks are clearly ignored. I've noticed this on other metal work like locks as well. They must have had a different aesthetic regarding file marks.   
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Online Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5653
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2020, 10:03:43 PM »
Wow!  I count 4 leaf springs plus the big "main" spring.  What a mechanism!

-Ron
Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.
-Nate McKenzie

Offline longcruise

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1622
  • Arvada, Colorado
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2020, 10:10:49 PM »
I think it is interesting that the inside is decorated very nicely and yet file marks are clearly ignored. I've noticed this on other metal work like locks as well. They must have had a different aesthetic regarding file marks.   

I wonder if it could be the work of multiple craftsmen each with a different sense of how it should be finished.
Mike Lee

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5963
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2020, 12:00:50 AM »
I wonder what would it cost to get this trigger copied.Probably be cost prohibitive
in today's money.
Bob Roller

Online smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3427
  • Dane Lund
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2020, 12:06:13 AM »
Possibly apprenticeship practice  before they are allowed to put they're skills to use where it's visible?
Just an idea.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4326
  • Chris Immel
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2020, 06:34:09 AM »
Even the top bearing surface of the rear trigger is fancy filed.

I would dare say this was never intended to actually be used in a gun.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1898
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2020, 01:20:17 PM »
That caught my eye too. The top surface of the bar? Why? Seems like to a small degree it would make it less functional. All of the engraving on the inside tells me this was for display. I could be wrong, and have been many times before. God bless, Marc

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2145
  • Socialist Republic of New York
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2020, 03:23:38 PM »
The mind set of many early artisans from medival times thru the renaissance was to do the very best their talents and training allowed, even if the piece wouldn't be seen by the general public, their maker would know. You would find that type of thinking in many places, most notably in churches and cathedrals during restoration, objects found in the most obscure places adding to the whole but so far away as to even identify are done with fine detail and craftsmanship. Maybe this set of triggers is for display but I would bet it was meant to be used.
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline 44-henry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2020, 04:32:16 PM »
When it was new and bright those file mark's wouldn't have been all that noticeable either, a couple centuries + of oxidation makes them stand out much more. Neat triggers.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3280
    • Personal Website
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2020, 05:47:14 PM »
I think there's quite a bit of evidence to the fact that we view file / tool marks different than those in the 18th century.  I believe they were much more accepted, especially in no visible areas.  This probably has something to do with the industrial revolution and machines.  I see the presence of the decorative file work as a completely different discussion.  Even the insides of locks had a bit of filed decoration.  Some had quite a lot.  If this part were case hardened (as I would expect),  I don't think the file work would affect it's performance.  I think it was made to be used.

Jim
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 10:55:41 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5963
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2020, 01:23:27 AM »
About 30 years ago I made up some double set triggers that had a
separate latch in the right side of the front trigger.The only advantage
was that when the trigger latch was adjusted to the finest touch there
was no change in the angle of the front trigger and the adjustment
screw was in the front trigger like the adjustment screw on a French
single set trigger.It was a 1x72 screw.Most of them went to Europe
and no interest at all here at $80 each. ;D

Bob Roller

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4326
  • Chris Immel
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2020, 01:44:11 AM »
It's a single action "nadelstecher" (there is no front trigger bearing surface that I can see).... made way more complicated than it needs to be!  I can't even imagine how it is supposed to work, with all those different springs.  Could have been something done as a guild test.
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5963
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 07:07:53 PM »
It's a single action "nadelstecher" (there is no front trigger bearing surface that I can see).... made way more complicated than it needs to be!  I can't even imagine how it is supposed to work, with all those different springs.  Could have been something done as a guild test.

It's a sequenced mechanism and when the rear trigger is pulled to set
it then these precisely fit parts will move on their tiny pins to lock and
engage the front trigger.I hade a set years ago and the pins were so tiny
I had no good way to remove them and was not sure I could get it back
together.The springs are also tensioned or preloaded to a specific task.
European watchmakers were known to make these types of triggers in
the French speaking section of Switzerland according to Helmut Mohr
in Mayen/Hausen Germany.
Bob Roller

Offline B.Barker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 797
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2020, 07:40:44 PM »
Pretty cool triggers and very interesting.

Offline Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2753
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2020, 10:29:42 PM »
Here are a couple more continental set triggers similar in constuction to Rons. I have been trying to find pictures of an original set trigger that Joe Williams of "The Gun Works"  loaned to me for a bit to study and make a replacement front trigger for the poorly made replacement it had when he acquired it. Its mechanism was made like a Swiss watch. The odd thing was the mechanism was mounted on a vertical central portion so the levers were external on one side. The trigger frame was in a bronze or brass the upright portion was maybe an inch tall and the levers on one side of the block and springs on the other side. The highly polished levers were fire blued. when you cocked the rear trigger all the levers collapsed into interlocking geometry. The larger of the triggers here is closest to the bronze set He loaned to me. The open set I copied from some where and shows a better view of the construction of the triggers workings.




Dave Blaisdell

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8379
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2020, 01:02:21 AM »
There are those who shine the bottom of their shoes now and even then.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5963
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2020, 03:22:10 AM »
"Its mechanism was made like a Swiss watch". Watch makers DID make
these fine triggers if they weren't working on a time piece of some kind.
According to one of my German friends,they were mostly in the French
speaking part of Switzerland.
Bob Roller

Offline blienemann

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 175
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2020, 06:40:39 AM »
Ron, I’m not sure this is similar, but here is a set trigger mechanism that was added to a Christian Oerter rifle dated 1775 that was found recently in Germany.  This set trigger assembly is simpler and perhaps stronger, with a stout pin rather than wire or needle for front trigger, and a smoky blue color from hardening and tempering remains visible.

Caspar Wister was importing rifles from Germany to Philadelphia in the 1730’s and 1740’s.   Several of his letters state “the barrels should be longer than normal because the people (here) prefer rifles with barrels that are three feet and three to four inches long . . . with a strong (large) bore, and with set triggers that can be fired set or not . . . But please no more with small hair /needle triggers . . .”

These fine triggers are common on fine European rifles, but not common on rifles made here in the colonies.  This Oerter rifle was originally stocked with a simple, single trigger, but the double triggers were added at some later date – perhaps after it was taken back to Germany.

I did not mean to hijack your thread, as you are discussing European triggers of very high quality, but this may also be a European trigger installed into a “plain rifle”.  Bob








Offline Ron Scott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2020, 07:25:06 PM »
Hi Bob, Thanks for adding your photos of the set trigger. It is very similar in general form to five that exist in rifles I own. A surprising number of them do not have a lever on the front trigger, mandating the trigger be set to trip the lock sear. I wish there was more information available regarding the specialization of lock and trigger manufacture in eighteenth century Europe.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5963
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2020, 07:57:04 PM »
That particular trigger may have been an answer to not having a
piece of steel or perhaps iron to make a more conventional style.
Some of the really elaborate ones made by watch makers became
legendary with claims that the weight of a shadow could trip them :o.
Triggers are all I now make and they are a K.I.S.S. design*
Bob Roller
*Keep It Simple,Stupid ;D

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5963
Re: European Set Triggers
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2020, 08:06:28 PM »
There are those who shine the bottom of their shoes now and even then.

And others who say,"I have mastered my trade" and then prove it.
In 1973 I traded a flintlock for an 1873 vintage DIGITAL coin silver
hunter's case pocket watch.It had no hands or numerals but it did
have 3 small "windows".One window shows the hour and the other
two were side by side and showed the minutes.It changed every minute
and when the hour was up,the whole thing shifted and you could hear
it engaging.A masterpiece to be sure.I finally sold it to a local pharmacist
who lost it in a burglary of his home about a year later.
I am sure whoever made this watch for the International Watch Company
in Schaffhausen Switzerland could make a trigger for a rifle.
Bob Roller