Author Topic: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler  (Read 2119 times)

Offline Barry Myers

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Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« on: February 19, 2020, 04:22:34 AM »
Bob Hill said that you might want to see some more pics of my fowler.  It is really sweet.  24 guage, finished bright and seemingly untouched.  The ramrod may be original, but it isn't full length, evidently broken off.

What puzzles me is that it has survived intact.  There is no wedge or pin holding the barrel to the stock.  Remove the tang screw and the ramrod is the only thing holding it in!  How was it reloaded without springing the tang or causing damage?

The locks are as new.  Really crisp.  The right hand hammer is not original, as it has a line engraved around its perimeter as does the top jaw.

The barrel is stamped "Lillial" (I think).  I'll take it apart tomorrow and post of pic of the name.


















Offline smart dog

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2020, 02:47:32 PM »
Hi,
Nice.  Looks French.

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 03:37:56 PM »
I think it is too.  Here is one for sale that looks to be a higher grade. I say that due to the engraving and checkering: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/antique-shotguns-flintlock/beautiful-french-flintlock-fowling-dbl-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101339399

Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2020, 08:59:03 PM »
As promised, here are some more pics.  I also noted that the hammer flint-holding bolt on the replacement hammer was different than the other.  And the makers name is Jean Lallier, I haven't found a record for him yet.















Offline Dave B

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2020, 05:24:18 AM »
I really like your piece. No question its French. I have seen one very similar to yours that Ron Scott had for a bit. The fore stock was held in place by a thin tube liner that slid in from the entry pipe to engage the  stud you see there. The ram rod slid in through this thin tube. I am not sure if Ron has any pictures of this feature but his was a higher grade gun than what you have here.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Dave B

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2020, 08:27:15 AM »
the retaining tube has a raise flange that you can catch with a thumbnail and slide toward the muzzle drawing clear of the retaining lug allowing the barrels removal.
It took me a bit to figure it out while Ron had that "I know something you don't look on his face. I think in the end he had to show me or maybe I figured it out. It was many years ago.
A very cool way to do it none the less.
Here is a sketch of my recollection how it worked.

Dave Blaisdell

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2020, 08:53:59 AM »
You're on the money, Dave!
 
French as stated above.
One here belonging to a mate back home;












Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2020, 03:06:33 PM »
Wow!  Thank you!  You guys are great for sharing your knowledge.  Now to make a tube!  Steel I assume, but brass may work for now.  Thanks again!

Offline LynnC

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2020, 07:29:04 PM »
Now I learned something new today. Thanks
Regardless of what some may think, We cannot be disarmed of our God Given and Constitutionally protected Rights.

Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2020, 02:10:03 AM »
Pukka, is the tube steel wrapped around a mandrel or is it welded?  The drawing looks to have a split at the end through the barrel lug.  Just looking for what I need to make.

Offline JBJ

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2020, 05:23:32 PM »
Went to "school" on this one! Slick!
J.B.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2020, 07:15:35 PM »
Barry,

I don't know if the pipe is solid or just  rolled and not joined.  I'd imagine, being so thin butted together and soldered maybe.
I have not seen Gordon's gun "in the flesh" as it were.
Some were also altered and a screw used, threaded into the barrel lug.
I have one altered in this manner.

Below is an on-line photo of this adaption, plus one of the lug on my gun;

Best,
R.




My gun is a bit of a mystery, as the forward ramrod pipe is Very small in diameter, and will only take a 1/4" rod at best.   Maybe a iron or baleen rammer was used.


Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2020, 04:09:59 AM »
Thank you, Pukka.  I have thought about doing that, but this gun has survived so long and I hate to modify any antique.  I don't know that anyone would shoot this gun.  If what I see in my barrel lug is not as stout on the bottom as yours appears to be.

My ramrod is extremely thin on the breech end.  It has a brass finial with screw threads for some loading/unloading apparatus.  It appears to be the original rod, but I would hate to try to load with something that thin.  I'll try to get a pic of the rod in a couple of days.  I am blacksmithing at a Civil War reenactment this weekend and am running out of time and on empty...

Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2020, 10:27:11 PM »
Here is a pic of the ramrod end.  It is .25 inches.  The first attempt to make a ramrod/barrel retaining sleeve was a failure.  I used a brass tube and tried to drill it out to .275" to accommodate the ramrod at the barrel lug.  May try to make a steel one...

Looking at the ramrod, it does not appear to be wood.  It may in fact be baleen as you have said above.  I have never knowingly seen baleen.


Online Bill Paton

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2020, 07:14:36 AM »
Baleen is very flexible, much more so than wood, and has a linear grain similar to horn. It polishes very well. The image you show is certainly compatible with baleen.

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2020, 04:18:19 PM »
Until now, I didn't know it was used for anything but corsets!

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2020, 05:42:36 PM »
Barry,
Baleen also used by sperm whales for filtering  Krill from the oceans....       LOL.

Online Bill Paton

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2020, 06:08:00 PM »
Pukka:

Please substitute “Mysticeti” (whales with baleen) for “sperm” (a big whale with big teeth instead of baleen). LOL

Kindly submitted by Bill Paton ;-)
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2020, 06:11:10 PM »
Bill,

Aaaaaaaaaaaagh!  I Knew that Bill!  LOL!!
Coffee must not have reached the brain yet....

We all grew up reading  Moby Dick....  No excuse...

Online Bill Paton

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2020, 06:41:39 PM »
Other than that, Pukka, your’s was a GREAT COMMENT!  Thanks for that and your many other knowledgeable and informative posts.
Bill (no coffee yet--on Alaska time) Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline LynnC

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2020, 06:56:34 PM »
Barry,

How long a tube does it take to hold your barrels. Could you use a cartridge case like a 22 Hornet to make the tube to fix your barrel in place.  The brass could be annealed an flared to form a ring end. Perhaps other longer cases might work better. Just a thought.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2020, 07:06:36 PM by LynnC »
Regardless of what some may think, We cannot be disarmed of our God Given and Constitutionally protected Rights.

Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2020, 08:52:18 PM »
The barrel lug is about 3.5" behind the lip of the entry pipe.  The drawing above shows the tube extending to the front of the wood - about another inch or so.  I tried to drill out a brass tube the correct OD to fit the entry tube so that the ramrod could pass through.  Didn't work well.  When I got the .277 bit almost to where the .275 ramrod (in that location) would fit, the tube twisted off.  Back to the drawing board...

Offline LynnC

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2020, 11:48:40 PM »
I see it more clearly now. Hobby shops used to sell thin wall brass tubing. A lathe would be handy in this case
Regardless of what some may think, We cannot be disarmed of our God Given and Constitutionally protected Rights.

Offline Pukka Bundook

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2020, 06:01:32 PM »
Barry,

As the tube needs to be tapered a bit, maybe make one of thin metal sheeting or tin.   That way it can be formed around a mandrel and soldered together.
If it isn't tapered, it will stand a chance of working its way out in use.

Good luck with it!
Richard.

Offline Barry Myers

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Re: Double Barrel Flintlock Fowler
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2020, 03:22:36 AM »
I made one and after tweaking it for a day, it holds the barrel in!  I did make it out of .015" mild steel and put it around a .275 mandrel.  I only had .315" to work with as that is the entry pipe diameter.  I couldn't put much of a taper on it as the end of ramrod is .25".  I tried to fire braze it, but gave up.  The ends butt up against each other well enough.