Author Topic: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!  (Read 3781 times)

steam

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Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« on: February 19, 2020, 09:04:52 AM »
Well, here I am waiting on my 67th. birthday and have yet to shoot a muzzleloader rifle!  I have   an interest for a flintlock, but I am a shooter with too many guns to shoot.  Not that many in number really, it is just that I go out and shoot them and there isn't time for a new interest.  But now that I am retired I have much more time to study, and shoot a muzzleloader.
  Where do I start?  All I know is that I would like a flintlock, suitable for deer or hog hunting, and a rifle that is properly built. A gun that would be accurately designed. I would like know the different styles of flintlock rifles, and be able to tell if a gun was worth owning.  At this point I think I could easily purchase a lemon and ugly duckling!

-steam-

Offline snapper

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2020, 04:05:48 PM »
What part of the country are you located?   Since you dont seem to have a particular style of flinter in mind, I would suggest that you handle and shoulder as many different style that you can.  You will most likely start to narrow down what you like.   The other issue is price.  You willing to spend at least a couple of thousand for a rifle?   If your budget is more in the "less then a thousand", then that narrows your search to perhaps something like a Lyman Great Plains Rifle.   This rifle would certainly be a great starter rifle.  It is not a great historically accurate rifle, but well built and priced right.

Without a doubt, if you ask, there are those on this forum that will have rifle for sale that might fit what you are looking for as well.

Good Luck

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline snapper

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2020, 04:09:16 PM »
Go to the for sale section here.   Start looking at all the rifles for sale and see if anything grabs you.   There is everything there from a Lyman GPR in .54 cal to a rifles that are over 3K.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2020, 08:43:08 PM »
STOP!!!
Before you buy your first one (and the information you receive from this site will all help) buy this book. I am older than you and have been shooting all my life and muzzleloaders since the 70's. It is everything you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask. You can buy it from NMLR or directly from the author:
Eric Bye
177 Main Street
North Springfield, Vermont 05150
Welcome to ALR from the "Muskrat"

« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 09:41:20 PM by MuskratMike »
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2020, 10:46:03 PM »
Steam - welcome and best wishes in this new "environment".
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

steam

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2020, 11:18:38 PM »
Thanks everyone!
I have been lurking here for a while, did not make any posts until I was ready to commit to black powder.   But I have read a little here.  This site was recommended to me as a resource from a gun builder.  Right now I have a modern pistol in the works, I won't know the final cost until it is completed.  That could be around November 2020.  In the meantime I am hitting the books and this forum for solid information.  All I know is that I want a flintlock for sure.  The gun needs to be a good round for wild hogs and deer.  The rifle needs to have excellent accuracy, whatever that means for traditionally styled flintlocks. 


-steam-
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 04:04:09 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2020, 12:18:50 AM »
Steam,
Welcome to this forum, I am a new comer here too but there is a ton to learn from this site. I am in a similar age bracket as you and I own a lot of guns and I like to shoot them all but don't have the time to do that. Frankly there is never going to be enough time to explore all that might interest you. I have been shooting since I was 7, the first gun I shot was a percussion 12g that knocked me on my butt and got my dad a good laugh...incidentally I laughed too. My dads interest was in Civil War rifles and muskets and we shot and hunted with them. I recently got the idea of building a rifle in particular, a full stock Hawken flint. I built a GRRW Hawken kit back in the late 70's but there was too much going on then to do much more than reading and studying. And in truth, there always seems to be too much going on. Aside from reading and learning about what you might like seek out gun shows, subscribe to Muzzleloader and Muzzle Blast. Handle as many rifles, smoothbores, flint and percussion as you can and that will help refine what you like. Enjoy the journey,
Rob

Offline Longknife

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2020, 07:59:03 AM »
Steam, If you are hunting deer a .45 or larger caliber is required in most states. If you want to hunt hogs I would not use anything smaller than .54.  I have shot probably 15 deer with a .54 and it usually drops then in their tracks so that probably would be the best choice for you. I am still wanting to take a hog with the .54. I have two .54's, How bout I bring them by and we both can take a hog! :D,,,,,Ed
Ed Hamberg

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2020, 02:13:11 PM »
Happy Birthday and welcome. You’ll get lots of differing advise on deer and hog calibers. Like Longknife says, it should be substantial, especially for hogs. I like .58 (I started out hunting with original Civil War Muskets). As to style, look at pictures and ask questions. If you find a rifle you like, post it here for feedback as to how well it’s built, historical correctness, or anything else of interest to you. You’ll find a helpful crowd here.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 02:16:38 PM by Bob McBride »

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2020, 06:09:59 PM »
Happy Bday and a couple of thoughts: Let us know where you are--Then we can direct you to some, if any, of your local or regional BP enthusiasts points of interest (shows, clubs, outfitters, makers, etc.).  You might have some closer than you know, and in person viewing and handling of guns can tell you a lot about what you like.

Also it's quite likely that another hunter from your jurisdiction is on board and can advise as to the rules for your area.

As far as choosing a type/style of gun, consider your lineage and location and how you got there-perhaps you had relatives present in Early America and you might want a replica of what they might have used. 

Finally, like most things, generally speaking the more you pay, the more you get: from production guns that hardly resemble anything historic more than a notion, to absolute knockout bench copies of fantastically historic and desirable guns with all hand-forged parts and engraving and carving.  And there's a lot in the middle where you do need some knowledge and advice and dissent to get a good functional, and history-affirming gun.  Because today's "good guns" are typically made by one or two folks rather than the cottage-industry production of the past, they do command a premium in prices.  The more you understand about making one, the easier this is to appreciate.

Additionally: Accuracy is generally a function of developing a load for each and every individual gun there is.  It takes decent bench skills to develop a load, but that's the only way to get best accuracy.  Flinters require holding-through the shot just a fraction of a second longer than modern ignition systems.  Took me a minute to adjust to that at first-having a lifetime of developing loads and benching the unmentionables.  It's rare that any well-made flinter won't shoot plenty accurate for hunting. The inexpensive guns may have some reliability issues, but even they can launch balls into a nice group. (note I mean well-known production guns with long histories, not the super cheap imported replicas of late.)

The developing a load concept is often difficult for new M/L guys to get, I suppose because they always thought ammo was ammo.  It's not and it never was.  Every gun likes a little different combination of components.  Any component change may alter that-so when you find a good one, stock up on those components, and be prepared for different results if you change powder brand (or grade), ball, patch, or lube.  Copying someone else's PET load will nearly never give you the great results their gun gets, but does give you a place to start and tweak from.  I might be good enough, but often won't be best.

Some use super fine powders for priming the pan, others, like me, prefer to prime the pan with main-charge powder for simplicity and security.  Security? you might ask.  Yes, security in that the prime will be there when the shot becomes available.  The super fine priming-only powders can escape the confines of your pan (while hunting and moving around through the bush) if it is not perfectly fitted with the cover.  Main charge powders don't slip out so easily.  If you use one powder, you carry less gear. You can overwhelm yourself with gear if not careful.  SEE Bob's BPTV Channel for some insights on that.  https://www.youtube.com/user/bhmack/videos

Bob's beginner level videos may help answer some of your questions.  He might also use your feedback to design more content.

This is the right place, but also there will be differences of opinion on most everything-and that's okay.  Just don't be un-informed or mis-informed.  Carry on!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 06:15:13 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

steam

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2020, 07:35:53 PM »
I realize that if I get involved with flintlocks  I am going to have to be "all in".  I am not a young man with an expanse of time ahead of me! I am going to have to be a quick study!  The difference to me between muzzleloader and centerfire is the rich history, of the rifles, the people, and where these people lived.  I live in southern California about 10 miles from Mexico.  Plenty of space to shoot.  I am within 50 miles of good deer hunting, wooded terrain, I know a number of bow hunters, who would put me in good position to hunt deer with a muzzleloader.  I mentioned the need of a rifle capable of taking deer and hogs.  It is not because I am an avid hunter.  But that is the kind of rifle I want.  I used to hunt deer a lot, in my youth.  Right now I am using the rifle acquisition to motivate me to get in better physical condition, so I can hunt again.  I have arthritis in my hips and knees, my doctor believes that most of my joint pain will disappear if I drop a lot of weight.  So this flintlock, that has been on hold all my life, is my motivator,  hunting with the rifle is my goal.

-steam-

Offline sz

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2020, 08:07:05 PM »
Steam, I just sent you a a note by PM.
.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2020, 08:12:17 PM »
Hi Steam and welcome. If you live in southern Cal. you might be close to Yuma AZ and they have an active ML group there. You could also show up in Pheonix on March 3-6 and shoot in the AZWINS matches. If you did you can come out to the bench rest range and I would try to help you out with a gun to shoot and supplies. Google AZWINS for info and directions to the Ben Avery Range. I think there is an active club in El Centro also.  :)

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2020, 08:36:42 PM »
Steam I sent a note in PM too. 
Hold to the Wind

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2020, 12:35:12 AM »
What Wade said about developing a load is spot on. I have come to believe that developing a load is the heart of learning your rifle. I have been shooting ML and reloading for over forty years and it only took a short time to learn that each rifle is different and each has particular likes and dislikes. The first ML I really worked up a load for was an original .50 percussion rifle probably made in the 1850's or 1860's from Troy, NY that I got in 1978. It was in great shape and except for a little slight pitting in the middle of the bore the bore was in great shape. I had it checked by a gunsmith for safety, checking the twist of the barrel putting a new nipple and giving it a good cleaning. Then I started with 70 grains of 2F (reasoning 50-70 cartridge 70 grains to start) I shot it on a bench on sand bags and had a terrible group if you could call it a group at all. I stayed with that same charge and components until I improved the groups slightly but couldn't get any better with it. Then before I changed anything I thought about what I should change first and only changed one thing at a time. In the case of this rifle, I kept the same ball and changed the thickness of the patches I was using. Eventually I found what that rifle liked and shot great groups and it was even more fun to shoot. My point is learning what the rifle likes is necessary part of learning how to shoot that rifle accurately. Its a process but a fun part of it too. Besides at your age (like me too) you have plenty of time that's what I tell myself anyway. Its a fun journey and the point is have fun.

Incidentally, my interest in ML started when I was very young and stemmed from my dad and uncles interest in the Civil War and those firearms used in it. My GG Grandfather fought in the Civil War and was wounded at Gettysburg. So I had a place to start but over the years its spanned a lot of different eras.
All the best,
Rob

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2020, 06:09:21 PM »
   Steam welcome to the ALR an Happy Birthday. Only things I would like to add is go to a show or range handle as many guns as you can. Find the one that feels right at the shoulder.
 Next make sure it has a good barrel, triggers an LOCK...! Without those three things...you have a nice piece of OF wood.
An no matter what you do...it invariably will not be accurate...!
    Oldtravler

     

Offline Don Steele

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2020, 01:05:32 PM »
Welcome Steam..
Allow me to add a few thoughts.
A rifle "capable" of hunting Deer and Hogs will likely be a minimum of 45 caliber. A good all-around choice that a lot of folks have gone with is 50 cal. I don't find the "Big Bore" rifles (above 54 cal) to be especially useful for my purpose since I don't take shots at "Hogzilla's" when I'm in the woods. I'm closing in rapidly on 70 yrs of age, and don't have much use for a 300 lb carcass that has to be dealt with. A 50 will cleanly kill any Deer in North America, and any hog that I'll take a shot at.
"The rifle needs to have excellent accuracy, whatever that means for traditionally styled flintlocks." 
If you're like most of us, you'll find the limiting factor in how precise ( group size) you can shoot a traditional rifle will be your choice of traditional sights...and...your eyesight. I get excellent precision from rifles set-up for target shooting with sights that would not be especially suitable for the kind of hunting conditions I generally find myself in. In other words...it's one thing to be shooting a purpose built spotter target using target sights in bright sunlight, but quite another to be drawing down on a deer or hog early in the morning around the edges of the Okefenokee Swamp where things aren't quite so well "lit up". "Excellent Accuracy" ??...As Wade said...finding the right combination of ball, patch, lube, powder charge, powder granulation...all of the components that make up the best load for your rifle that will determine how well your rifle shoots. With a good quality barrel and and an optimized combination...I expect to get 5 shots into a single ragged whole from my rifles when fired from a rest at 50 yds. When I get that level of precision (or very close to it) I generally stop searching and just shoot.
Flintlocks require a whole set of skills that don't trouble caplock shooters. I was a caplock shooter for 40 yrs before I got bit by the flintlock bug about 4 yrs ago...now I don't shoot anything else. 
Again...Welcome. As "Bear Claw" Chris Lapp said to Jeremiah...You got some Learnin' to do.  ;)
Enjoy the journey.
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

steam

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2020, 07:01:36 PM »
  I want to thank everyone for all the help you have given me in planning my first flintlock purchase.  I hope to one day be able to assist others in the same manner. I am seriously involved with flintlocks already!  I am spending at least 3 hours a day researching the subject.  I have a book list recommended by members of this forum, and will be purchasing them next month.  At some point I will have to decide on a rifle budget, and whether I am going to purchase an additional firearm, or sell a gun to make room space wise or budget wise, for the new gun.  I don't like the idea of selling guns off!

-steam-

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2020, 07:29:34 PM »
That sounds like a great plan. After you decide what type of flintlock you want, where to get it and or who's going to make it. Save up your money, make a budget then DOUBLE IT!
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2020, 11:27:16 PM »
As Don pointed out pretty clearly, your sights are one of the important considerations in how accurate your rifle will be as well as the conditions you shoot in. I am in the sixty-ish age group and my eyes have changed more in the last few years than I can ever remember. Although I still use traditional open sights I have been using peep sights a lot lately. In particular the Marbles and Skinner sights where you can remove the aperture and use them like a ghost ring. In fact I just started building a full stock Hawken flint I may put a modified Skinner sight on. If I were you along with all the reading and research I would find a shop or show and start handling some of those flintlocks you are interested in you would be surprised how the different style rifles feel in the hand and on the shoulder. And like Mike said, figure out what your budget is then be prepared to break it chances are the "perfect" rifle for you will be more than you budgeted....
Rob

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2020, 01:00:13 AM »
Borderdogs: if you put a peep on a Hawken and aren't concerned about being period correct I found the Marbles peep for a Savage 99 fits the tang arc with only ferry minor tweaking. If you remove the screw-in apature you can use it like a ghost sight and keep your rear sight. Or not.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2020, 02:59:30 AM »
Mike; I like period correct but I also like to shoot too. On the Hawken I am building I plan to cut the dovetail for the rear sight out about 9" inches or so out on the barrel. I tired that on another rifle I have and I can see the open sights a little better. Brant Selb has a full stock Hawken flint that he put what looks like a modified Skinner sight on at the request of his customer. If you check out his website he has several pictures of it. That was where I got the idea of a Skinner. I have a Skinner on one of my 45-70 lever. I also put Marbles on some other levers I have and I love those sights.
Rob

Offline MuskratMike

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2020, 04:59:47 AM »
Nice choice on getting a Selb rifle. He lives a couple of hours away from me. Just possibly the nicest Hawken made.
"Muskrat" Mike McGuire
Keep your eyes on the skyline, your flint sharp and powder dry.

Offline borderdogs

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2020, 02:06:26 PM »
Mike, I actually have three of his a Kit Carson .58, a squirrel .32, and a full stock percussion .50. I am building a full stock flint .50 and I am using the full stock as a model for the one I am building. Yes I agree they are very nice rifles.
Rob

Greg s

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Re: Help Wanted-Preparing for first muzzleloader!
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2020, 11:21:48 PM »
Hi
I started with a tradition 50 cal Hawken cap lock good 450.00 $ first gun to learn about load development cleaning , casting round balls and conicals . Not many people at my range shoot powder so YouTube became a valuable resource. Now I’m saving for a fire lock smoothbore
Greg