Sources for wood carving designs found on original long rifles?

[jstedfast]

Hi all,

I've decided that I want to make a go at building a "Bucks County" style long rifle but one of the things that I've been unable to find much information on is examples of wood carvings, engravings on the brass plates, etc. Ideally I'd be able to find patterns that I could "trace" since I lack much in the way of artistic talent.

Youtube is a valuable resource for figuring out "How" to do things (such as carving/engraving), but not so great for the "What".

I was looking around and saw some books on Muzzleloader Builder's Supply (https://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/mbs3cart/agora.cgi?cart_id=9317952.29101&next=25&product=Books-Videos-Drawings) that may have what I'm looking for (the Collection of Patterns book, Vol. 1, Rifles of Colonial America, and Vol. 2, Rifles of Colonial America). The Collection of Patterns book looks to me like it's probably more focused on engraving patterns and not wood carving designs/patterns but the other 2 books seem somewhat promising (sadly out of stock for Vol 1), although it seems more likely they are just full of photos of rifles rather than patterns I could trace onto a stock, for example. Still, at least they would provide ideas.

At the end of the day, I may just decide that this is way beyond my ability to accomplish and just build a "poor boy" (or a "middle class boy"? i.e. a patch box, etc. but minimal carving/etching).

[smallpatch]

The only source I know of, is photos of original guns.  It's up to the builder to translate them to the new piece.

[heinz]

The two Rifles of Colonial America books are excellent references. Kibler Longrifles have a book on carving longrifles, a small how to that is also very useful.

[StevenV]

Wes White photo collection of Eastern Pennsylvania long rifles put out by the KRA has lots of photos of Bucks/Berks County guns.  Volume 16   , you can draw one of these on your guns, if I can draw you can draw . Its not all artistic talent, determination and desire is just as important.       Steve

[Bill Raby]

The carving is not the hard part.

[HIB]

Jestedfast,   Glad you are on board.  The CD mention above is produced by the Kentucky Rifle Foundation and can be purchased by locating the Foundations web page and ordering the correct CD that matches your goal.  The photos are HD and can be enlarged on your computer to satisfy your skills. Try   kentuckyriflefoundation.org  and search thru their CD sales page.

Good luck and welcome,   HIB

[577SXS]

The Kentucky Rifle Foundation looks like a great resource. I'm fairly new to longrifles and didn't know about the KRF. I just ordered two CDs to try. Finding good photos of carvings has been hard to find. I have taken photo of carving in a book the sized on my printer to later transfer to stock. Thanks for posting the site information.

[Mike Lyons]

The KRA discs and the RCA books are great resources to study.  A Bucks County would be quite the challenge for a first time engraver.  Bucks County rifles normally use incised carving.  I prefer a parting tool but there’s a good CD by Jack Brooks that describes incised and relief carving using the stabbing method.  If you are going after a historically correct rifle,  spend a lot of time doing your research and when you need advice, post questions geared towards the builders on this forum that answer your questions correctly.  You’re going to see a lot of pictures of rifles that are labeled specific schools but are not anywhere near correct.  Same goes for advice,  you’re going to get a lot of advice from folks that won’t take advice and like to do it their way.  If historically correct is what you’re after,  stick with it.

[FALout]

Books are your friend.  You may not be able to just copy and trace, but that’s not where you will learn the style of rifle your trying to make.  By studying pics you pick up the little things that make old time builders something to copy.  As already stated, the KRA disks are a great resource as are the books.  There are never enough pics to study.  Depending on where you live, there are shows with originals for you to see many rifles.  Good luck, the Bucks county style rifle is one I would also like to build.
Bob

[Lucky R A]

           I could highly recommend Dave Hanson's book, The American Longrifle, its art and evolution.  Dave packed this book with very high quality color photographs, showing most all the angles and details that one would need to recreate a specific gun.  Dave's book has the finest Bucks Co. rifles known both from Verner and Shuler.  The book contains guns from early to late in many schools of building.  In the back of book Dave included the most relevant dimensions that would be of use to a builder.  It is a bit pricy, but will be your "go to" book much of your building. 
           Be careful of the hardware you purchase for your build, as many of the suppliers label things as appropriate for Bucks Co. guns that are not even close.  For the tombstone furniture used by Shuler and other Bucks Co. builders, Dave Keck is the only one that I presently know that casts the correct style.  Verner style furniture is somewhat easier to find.    If you are looking at doing a rifle with the extended entry pipe; that will be a complete study in itself.   You will have to build it yourself, and the instillation procedure is very specific. 
            Do the research and don't skimp on the research materials.  If at all possible go to longrifle shows where you can see original guns and possibly handle them. 

Ron 

[Jim Kibler]

Jestedfast,   Glad you are on board.  The CD mention above is produced by the Kentucky Rifle Foundation and can be purchased by locating the Foundations web page and ordering the correct CD that matches your goal.  The photos are HD and can be enlarged on your computer to satisfy your skills. Try   kentuckyriflefoundation.org  and search thru their CD sales page.

Good luck and welcome,   HIB

Henry,

Any chance these images could be sold on a memory stick rather than CD?  CD's are pretty much a thing of the past now.  I don't even have a way to play them anymore.  Another option would be a fee for downloading the images.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Evans]

Any chance these images could be sold on a memory stick rather than CD?  CD's are pretty much a thing of the past now.  I don't even have a way to play them anymore.  Another option would be a fee for downloading the images.

Thanks,
Jim

Jim
You can get an external CD drive from Amazon for $18.25,may even find them closer to you, at a retailer.

[Mauser06]

Jim Kibler, assuming you have a laptop of some sort, Jim Evans recommendation is spot on.  External disc player.  I know i got mine at Walmart several years ago...I was just blown away...I bought a pretty good laptop and went to put a disc in and realized the dang thing didn't have a CD drive of any sort. 

Mine plays and burns CDs/DVDs. 

[TommyG]

If you are fortunate to live in an area that you could take in a few shows that feature some original work, that by far is the best way to understand and interpret what exactly the original carving and related details looked like.  The next best thing would be solid reference materials.  For myself RCA vol.1 is a must have, I second Lucky's recommendation of Dave Hanson's book, it has some great photos and staring dimensions as well.  I'm partial to Moravian guns, so Moravian Gunmaking Vol.1(if you can find it) & 2 are right up there as well.  Both well done with great photos and info.  I do have a few of the KRA discs, Kindig books as well as photos I take of original work(with permission) at shows.  What it boils down to is you will find as you get deeper into building, your reference materials become part of your tool chest and require a substantial investment as you go along.  Plus the amount of early American history you will learn along the journey is absolutely fascinating as well. 

[VP]

Jim Kibler

The Kentucky Rifle Foundation does recognize that the CD is going to go away at some point. We will be making a transition to memory sticks or downloads, just not sure when this will happen. The problem with a memory stick is that a single 1GB stick, which is what is needed for a CD, is about $2.50 each and I haven't found an adequate way to label them yet. Most sticks don't have a place to put info on them.

VP

[jstedfast]

The two Rifles of Colonial America books are excellent references. Kibler Longrifles have a book on carving longrifles, a small how to that is also very useful.

Thanks, Heinz. I think I'll order Vol 2. Worst case scenario, I'm sure it'd make for a great book to leave on my coffee table 

I ordered the following books as well and just had them delivered:

The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle
The Gunsmith of Greenville County
The Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle
The Modern Kentucky Rifle
Recreating the American Longrifle

Some of these have some great photos of some of the styles of carvings.

[jstedfast]

Wes White photo collection of Eastern Pennsylvania long rifles put out by the KRA has lots of photos of Bucks/Berks County guns.  Volume 16   , you can draw one of these on your guns, if I can draw you can draw . Its not all artistic talent, determination and desire is just as important.       Steve

Thanks for the tips, Steve. I'll check these out!

Good point about artistic talent as well.

[jstedfast]

The KRA discs and the RCA books are great resources to study.  A Bucks County would be quite the challenge for a first time engraver.  Bucks County rifles normally use incised carving.  I prefer a parting tool but there’s a good CD by Jack Brooks that describes incised and relief carving using the stabbing method.  If you are going after a historically correct rifle,  spend a lot of time doing your research and when you need advice, post questions geared towards the builders on this forum that answer your questions correctly.  You’re going to see a lot of pictures of rifles that are labeled specific schools but are not anywhere near correct.  Same goes for advice,  you’re going to get a lot of advice from folks that won’t take advice and like to do it their way.  If historically correct is what you’re after,  stick with it.

Thanks Mike!

I did come across the fact that they used incised carving, but, as a complete novice who knows nothing about carving, I was not aware that it was more difficult. In fact, I'm still not even 100% sure what incised carving means. I figured one of my next TODO items would be to get a book on wood carving, buy some wood carving knives/chisels, and some practice wood.

With all the helpful replies I've gotten with this thread, I'm glad I found this forum. It's great to know I'll have a place I can come to ask questions!

[jstedfast]

           I could highly recommend Dave Hanson's book, The American Longrifle, its art and evolution.  Dave packed this book with very high quality color photographs, showing most all the angles and details that one would need to recreate a specific gun.  Dave's book has the finest Bucks Co. rifles known both from Verner and Shuler.  The book contains guns from early to late in many schools of building.  In the back of book Dave included the most relevant dimensions that would be of use to a builder.  It is a bit pricy, but will be your "go to" book much of your building. 
           Be careful of the hardware you purchase for your build, as many of the suppliers label things as appropriate for Bucks Co. guns that are not even close.  For the tombstone furniture used by Shuler and other Bucks Co. builders, Dave Keck is the only one that I presently know that casts the correct style.  Verner style furniture is somewhat easier to find.    If you are looking at doing a rifle with the extended entry pipe; that will be a complete study in itself.   You will have to build it yourself, and the instillation procedure is very specific. 
            Do the research and don't skimp on the research materials.  If at all possible go to longrifle shows where you can see original guns and possibly handle them. 

Ron

Wow, great information! Thanks Ron!

I actually plan on trying to make it to Dixon's Fair this summer. I'm only about 2 hours south, so it's not too far away. I considered going to it last summer but wasn't able to go due to a scheduling conflict with a business trip 

I'm also planning to go back to Jacobsburg to try taking some pictures of some of the rifles they have on display. I went last summer but forgot to take pictures!

[TommyG]

Ok, so you do live in the right area to see some original work.  Plan on attending the Eastern PA longrifle show in Morgantown, PA(just south of Reading, off I176).  It,s usually around the middle of Sept..  Great show for seeing original work and many of the collectors will let you handle and photograph their guns.  Also, take a trip to the Museum of the American Revolution in Philly.  They also have quite a display of different pieces as well.  There you can take pics, but no flash.  There is also the Mercer museum in Doylestown, they have the original Edward Marshall rifle, but I don't remember seeing any Bucks county guns, but I may be wrong.  And of course, Dixon's in July, you will learn quite a bit there in a days time.

[jstedfast]

Ok, so you do live in the right area to see some original work.  Plan on attending the Eastern PA longrifle show in Morgantown, PA(just south of Reading, off I176).  It,s usually around the middle of Sept..  Great show for seeing original work and many of the collectors will let you handle and photograph their guns.  Also, take a trip to the Museum of the American Revolution in Philly.  They also have quite a display of different pieces as well.  There you can take pics, but no flash.  There is also the Mercer museum in Doylestown, they have the original Edward Marshall rifle, but I don't remember seeing any Bucks county guns, but I may be wrong.  And of course, Dixon's in July, you will learn quite a bit there in a days time.

Great suggestions, thanks!

[Jerry V Lape]

Pictures are a great help but they are only 2 dimensional.  I didn't really grasp the depth of these carvings until I examined some originals and could see how the illusion of multiple depths could be created in 1/32 of an inch or less.  Don't start cutting until you have seen the real thing by a good carver. 

You can use the Vol 2 by scanning it onto your computer then resizing the photo to approximate size of your rifle on your printer.  It will serve as a drawing guide but you still have to proportion things to your specific stock.

You live in the eastern US and there are several carving instructors there.  The money will be well spent! 

[577SXS]

I purchased several of the KRF CDs and I've tried to print some of the details on rifles so I could transfer them to a gun. Didn't work at all. When I sized them they turned to a blur. Not happy at all with the CDs. I can get much better quality taking a photo of a picture in a book and sizing it. I thought these CDs were HD and you could print in HD. I hate I wasted my money on them.

[BFox]

Not sure how you were trying to print the KRF CD photos but I just had no problem by enlarging them on the screen, then selecting a specific area using the Windows snip function, and printing it out (even larger than life-size) at full resolution. It may also work if you print the entire photo directly using larger sheets of paper (e.g., 11x17) but I don't have that size handy to try. There are probably other ways as well but any of them should give you much better resolution than trying to blow-up a photo from a book.
Hope this helps,
Bernie

[JTR]

jstedfast,
Are you looking for a carving pattern for all sorts of longrifles, or just for a Bucks County incised carved gun?