Author Topic: Breech plug position question (Read 3472 times)

JO49 · « **on:** March 03, 2020, 01:56:50 AM »

Newbie here.....Need a helping suggestion

Building an TOTW Isaac Haines. Barrel is inletted and I just fished inletting the lock plate. However when I measured where the breech plug is it is extended about 1/3 way into my pan. Can I make it work by doing a little work on the BP???

Thank you,

Joe

Daryl · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2020, 03:10:17 AM »

That is the manner of the Indian made Bess'. I do not think it is a good thing, however, hopefully others that know better than I will respond.

BruceH · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2020, 03:11:50 AM »

Joe, I can try to help. You can still move the whole barrel assembly back. Go slow and check often. One way to make sure you get it right is to scribe a center line on the flat that your vent will go in. That line should run horizontal down the length of the flat. Next, scribe a vertical line where your breach plug face ends on that same flat. Then measure the diameter of your vent liner, divide that by half and add about 1/16" to that half. Using that measurement, scribe another vertical line that distance forward from the breach plug face line. Now, where the last vertical line and the center line meet, use a punch and put a little mark at their intersection. That will be the center of where you will later drill for you vent liner. As you know, you want the liner hole centered on your pan in the sun set position.

From the picture it also looks like you need to go deeper with your barrel channel, which will let you get your vent in the proper place - vertically. It will also allow you to take some of the sharp bend out of your tang and flow into the wrist area.

There are other ways to accomplish the task and others may chime in.

JO49 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2020, 03:19:06 AM »

OK, thank you very much helping me out!!!!

smallpatch · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2020, 03:46:54 AM »

Jo49er,
You need a mentor, or at least some adult supervision. I wish I could be there to help these things BEFORE they happen.

If your tang is flared, you're asking for trouble moving the barrel back.
It's kinda late for that. It will cause additional inletting problems to fix.
If it's a straight tang, you still can with no trouble.
Also, if you shorten your bolster, the tang will bend closer to the barrel, and you can get rid of that hump.
You're also going to have an issue with your tang screw, WAY off.
I guess this is how we learn!?! I did it the same way.

FALout · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2020, 03:51:45 AM »

Not to nag, but this is where doing a layout/drawing really helps to avoid this in the future.

Stophel · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2020, 04:38:14 AM »

Seriously, it's just right, at least as far as fore-aft position. Don't try to sink the barrel further back.

If needed, you can notch the breechplug (believe it or not, this is not a bad thing). You also can open the pan trough up towards the front... which is also not a bad thing.

Now that I look at it again, I agree, it looks like the lock is positioned mighty low on the barrel. That could be much more problematic.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2020, 03:54:28 PM »

Not laying any claims to be a gun maker but there have been pictures of "notched" breech plugs
due to this fairly common but minor problem.A few strokes with a sharp 3/16" diameter chainsaw
file will solve the problem and there will be no danger of the plug blowing out in your face.THAT
is another set of problems that would take some real messing up to create.
Bob Roller

JO49 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2020, 04:27:44 PM »

Thanks everyone! I decided to get another stock and start over. I will use this stock for practice on so I can get it done right on the next one. I wanted to experiment with some carving also but not on a working rifle to start with.

Thanks again!

Joe

Eric Krewson · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2020, 05:00:14 PM »

The biggest problem you have is getting a precarve(if it is a precarve) with a lock inlet already done, I bought one that way and never will again. Preserves have enough issues to correct without having the lock inlet positioned incorrectly.

t.caster · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2020, 06:01:58 PM »

If you are getting another stock...order it pre-shaped, but without the lock pre-inlet. I just did one from Pecatonica that way and it worked out fine. I don't like (no hate) to notch the breech face, because in my own opinion, it causes problems shooting and cleaning with crud building up in that notch-out and causing misfires, etc.

That said I just recvd. a PA Fowler kit from Chambers that has the lock pre-inlet and thankfully the lock will line up, with the touchhole just in front of the breech face, so no notch is needed! Thanks Jim! You know what I like! Haha!

I have had a few kits that forced me to move the barrel back and down deeper which is a lot more work, but solves the problem.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2020, 09:01:42 PM »

As my good friend and gunmaker Tom Nixon said. I like precarved stocks because the
mistakes are already made and he can then add his own

.I got a project about 10
years ago with a walnut full stock and a one inch 58 caliber GM barrel.It was NOT
inletted for any lock and I used my own version of a Ketland flintlock and it worked
fine.I didn't take a lot of time with finishing it but it was presentable and went off
like a centerfire with that lock and vent.
Bob Roller

Bob Roller · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2020, 09:11:48 PM »

Quote from: Daryl on March 03, 2020, 03:10:17 AM

That is the manner of the Indian made Bess'. I do not think it is a good thing, however, hopefully others that know better than I will respond.

I know one thing for sure.That plug in the picture looks like the threads were cut with 2 different
dies or NO dies at all.This junk from 3rd world shops is nothing that we should be shooting and
should not even be offered for sale here in North America.
Bob Roller

Daryl · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2020, 10:47:00 PM »

LOL - Bob, the thread engagement of the 3 threads between the cut-out and the groove before the 'plate', measured from .002 1/2 thou, to 22 1/2 thou. which is why the threads are
filled with fouling. I had already scraped out the fouling from the groove behind the threads as it was filled and the groove not evident.

JO49 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2020, 01:02:04 AM »

Well I moved the barrel back so I should be OK. The tall line is where the breech plug ends. I'll have room to install the White Lightning vent liner now without interference, indicated by the Sharpie dot. Thank you

Joe

Ky-Flinter · « **Reply #15 on:** March 04, 2020, 05:20:22 AM »

Joe,

It looks like the dot that indicates your vent hole is very low on the side barrel flat. The vent should be centered vertically in the barrel flat, or nearly so. The barrel needs to be inletted deeper. Been there, done that

-Ron

BruceH · « **Reply #16 on:** March 04, 2020, 02:07:00 PM »

Joe, good job correcting so far. It does look like you still need to go deeper with the barrel. Be careful using pencils and sharpies as markers. First of all they will disappear, causing you to repeat work. Those thick lines can also lead to small errors. I am betting you are using a tape or ruler for measuring. Go ahead and make a leap to using a good set of calipers. Actually, you can use the tips of the calipers (metal ones) to scribe your lines. If I had an extra barrel here I could post some pictures showing how - but I don't right now. Also, when you get to the point of drilling for the vent, you want to move your center point slightly up towards the top of the barrel so that the vent hole is not too far down into the flash pan hole. This may sound confusing and contradict what I posted earlier, but it is not.

What I see right now is that you have moved the barrel back, but you have not scribed the horizontal line down the center of the flat. You must get that line scribed and move the barrel down until the top flats on the flash pan align with it

JO49 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 04, 2020, 05:22:10 PM »

Thank you, I will get that corrected!

smokepole45cal · « **Reply #18 on:** March 04, 2020, 05:59:54 PM »

I don't see anyone commenting that modern lock placement looks odd with the fence so FAR ahead of the breech compared to originals.

I dont prefer using this style of lock (compared to late Ketland or Manton) because it is so difficult properly place the fence especially with a vent liner. Notching modern BPs leaves more than enough threading especially with modern threading and I dont get fouling in notch if I clean my guns after shooting.

Ky-Flinter · « **Reply #19 on:** March 04, 2020, 09:15:53 PM »

Quote from: Ron Scott on January 14, 2016, 04:57:56 PM

Having the fence line up with the breech is not an issue if you do a reveiw of original flintlocks. This is particularly true if you examine Flintlocks of Germanic Origin. The handful of original Flintlocks that I own have an average space of 3/16 inch between the fence and breech. This typical lock placement gives latitude to drill the vent without interference with the breech face.

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on March 08, 2010, 12:37:17 AM

Rather than drive yourself crazy with the rear fence having to line up at the back end of the barrel, take a look in some gun books. A couple of books: Rifles of Colonial America, Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age, etc. You will see many, many rifles where the fence does not line up with the back of the barrel. This is a modern myth that the fence has to line up with the breech end. If it works out, great. If it doesn't, realize that builders 200 yrs ago didn't get the thing to line up either.

Comments from fellows who know a lot more than me.

-Ron

Bob Roller · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2020, 09:22:49 PM »

Years ago I got a desperate call from a friend who owned a hardware store and she said
her pipe threading machine was making a weird thread and wanted it fixed.
The dies were 2 piece and one had worked loose and was splitting the threads.
I reset and tightened the holder and all was well again.
Bob Roller

smokepole45cal · « **Reply #21 on:** March 05, 2020, 01:11:25 AM »

Quote from: Ky-Flinter on March 04, 2020, 09:15:53 PM

Quote from: Ron Scott on January 14, 2016, 04:57:56 PM
Having the fence line up with the breech is not an issue if you do a reveiw of original flintlocks. This is particularly true if you examine Flintlocks of Germanic Origin. The handful of original Flintlocks that I own have an average space of 3/16 inch between the fence and breech. This typical lock placement gives latitude to drill the vent without interference with the breech face.

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on March 08, 2010, 12:37:17 AM
Rather than drive yourself crazy with the rear fence having to line up at the back end of the barrel, take a look in some gun books. A couple of books: Rifles of Colonial America, Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age, etc. You will see many, many rifles where the fence does not line up with the back of the barrel. This is a modern myth that the fence has to line up with the breech end. If it works out, great. If it doesn't, realize that builders 200 yrs ago didn't get the thing to line up either.

Comments from fellows who know a lot more than me.

-Ron

Actually I didn't even realize that the forward movement of fences from the breech was a modern phenomena till it was pointed out to me by Blake Stevenson, the master of the Vogler Gunshop at Old Salem/MESDA here in NC. So I studied for myself and found that while there are exceptions here and there, originals in RCA I/II, Kindig's book, and the MESDA collection by and large show fence placement at the breech.

Daryl · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2020, 02:18:58 AM »

I submit that many of those guns have exceedingly short plugs, shorter than what is deemed normal for today.

Stophel · « **Reply #23 on:** March 05, 2020, 03:36:31 AM »

A few years ago, it was all the rage for people to demand that their pan fence lined up with the breech.. because "all the originals were done that way".... of course, it takes no more than a cursory examination to see that nothing could be farther from the truth.

Dphariss · « **Reply #24 on:** March 06, 2020, 05:02:29 AM »

Quote from: Stophel on March 05, 2020, 03:36:31 AM

A few years ago, it was all the rage for people to demand that their pan fence lined up with the breech.. because "all the originals were done that way".... of course, it takes no more than a cursory examination to see that nothing could be farther from the truth.

This is of course true the fence in various locations in relation the the breech.
However, if trying to make a close copy of an original rifle with the fence at or near the breech of the barrel and the lock is set forward it can change the way the rifle looks from the comb to the front of the lock. Especially if using a "bent" lock.
If I need to set the lock back or want to I cup the breech and vent into the cup.
I like the fence at or near the breech. But thats just me.

Dan

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Author Topic: Breech plug position question (Read 3472 times)

smokepole45cal

smokepole45cal