Author Topic: Full stock Hawken build (Read 4299 times)

borderdogs · « **on:** March 03, 2020, 06:07:04 PM »

Hi Guys,
I started building a full stock flint Hawken rifle in .50. Most of the parts came from Pecatonica River components with some other parts coming from Track of the Wolf and a few other places. I will post pictures once I get a little further along.

Right now I have the barrel fitted it has a hooked breech. The tang is where I have been having some trouble. In reforming the tang to get the hump out I cold bent it and it snapped. I had made a form from cardboard then transferred it to some scrap light steel. I was able to get most of the tang shaped correctly but it still had the hump and sat proud of the barrel flat slightly. The space was at the base of the tang and I couldn't get that right to the form. I filed the tang to the barrel flat then I super glued the tang to the barrel then fitted the barrel/tang on to the stock. Just about had them fitted in the mortises and saw that the tang was a fair bit above its mortise and thought about filing the tang down but it seemed like a lot of material to remove. So I dissolved the glue with acetone and made a heavier form out steel to use as a former for the tang. There was about a 1/8" or so under the hump so I set the tang onto the former and hammered it into place. As I hammered it I tried it and it was looking good, I should have left it alone but I still had a little more to go. So as I hammered it down it snapped. It's an L & R so I ordered a new one and should have it in a few days. I thought of maybe fixing it but decided to replace it. So not off to an auspicious start but not discouraged though.

I am trying to approach this build as a bunch of little projects like Taylor said in his Hawken stuff posts. So I will work on the lock and trigger assemblies while I wait for the tang to come in. In fact I will start the with the trigger assembly by disassembling it and reforming the trigger plate......uh oh!
Rob

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2020, 07:38:10 PM »

Rather than using a hammer to bash things into alignment, I use a three pin system to bend parts. I cut three 2 1/2" pieces out of a 3/8" diameter bridge spike and drilled a cross hole through one end of each @ 1/16" to receive a length of welding rod. The welding rod is bent around the corners of the machinist's vise just to hold the rods in place. So with two of the rods strapped to the vise, I place the tang between them and the adjacent jaw, and place the third rod where I want to make the bend. Closing the vise onto the tang now presses the middle rod against the tang exactly where I want to initiate a bend, and the metal moves easily.
When bending the trigger plate, remember that it will bend most easily where the openings are for the triggers, so stay away from there unless that's what you're after. The three pin system is ideal for that job. Thanks to Ken Guy for this tip.

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** March 03, 2020, 07:41:45 PM »

Not sure it’s easy to get the jump out on an L&R Hawken breech. I’d only bend it hot, red hot. If it’s getting thin when you remove material I would braze or weld material on the underside of the tang to reinforce it there. You do not want a thin spot right there behind the face of the standing breech.

I will be blasphemous here and suggest scrapping that breech entirely and going with a long tang fixed breech. That in my view is the most likely guess as to what would have been used on a flintlock early J&S Hawken rifle. Like this:

Many parts suppliers assume the early guns were basically the same as later S Hawken designs. Then folks look at their kits or parts sets and thinks, “ok, that’s how they were, all right.”

Your issue in this case is you have a precarve stock so you have to go with their parts.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #3 on:** March 03, 2020, 07:57:57 PM »

I've done a couple of full stocked flint J & S Hawken rifles and agree with Rich that a tang known as a "flint tang" would be more appropriate. Here's a Don Stith rifle I built with such a tang.

borderdogs · « **Reply #4 on:** March 03, 2020, 08:10:10 PM »

Thanks for the suggestions I really appreciate them. The three point method sounds good and I will try that. Yes it is a pre-carved stock and I was back and forth about whether to use a tang hooked/breech or fixed. And you are correct about having to stick with their parts to some degree. When the tang broke I actually considered going with a fixed breech. One of the reasons I went with a hooked breech was it is practical albeit not necessarily historic. Its been over 40 years since I built a rifle and for nearly that long shooting bp rifles with hooked breeches I like being able to remove the barrel to clean it. So my line of thought was to complete a practical flint plains rifle rather than make it completely historic. I kind of needed to get my hands dirty and finding the pitfalls again after so long. That's one of the reasons I am not discouraged by breaking the tang. I have a full stock Hawken percussion which I am using as a model as well as Track's plan set for a Hawken full stock flint. Having that rifle, although percussion, is a great reference to refer to especially after such a long time since building the last rifle.
Rob

borderdogs · « **Reply #5 on:** March 03, 2020, 08:13:11 PM »

I still may reconsider the flint tang, I had planned to use wedges but I made some pins from nails when I was waiting for the parts to come in.
Rob

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #6 on:** March 03, 2020, 08:22:59 PM »

Barrel keys, slides, or wedges are appropriate for your rifle...pins not so much.
I built a wooden support block to support the end of the barrel with the tang inside the support, for cleaning in a pail with the barrel out of the wood. I clean all my rifles with the barrels out of the wood, every time. The support block supports the end of the barrel, and the tang is free to just hang there. You don't want to put any pressure on a tang in your cleaning pail...if you bend it, even a little you're humped.

borderdogs · « **Reply #7 on:** March 03, 2020, 10:25:39 PM »

Yes, I agree I like to clean my barrels out of the stock too. The full stock Hawken percussion I have has wedges opposite the lock side of the rifle. Incidentally Taylor, in the picture of the rifle you build with the flint tang where does the second tang screw end up, the one above the lock? From the angle of the picture it looks very close to the stud on the trigger guard.
Thanks,
Rob

borderdogs · « **Reply #8 on:** March 03, 2020, 10:34:20 PM »

I like the wooden support block idea to protect the tang sounds like a great idea,
Rob

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2020, 11:28:18 PM »

The forward screw goes through the thick end of the trigger plate and comes out just forward of the guard stud.

borderdogs · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2020, 11:51:52 PM »

I knew that was close! Thanks for the picture Taylor.
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #11 on:** March 04, 2020, 06:58:25 PM »

To hammer the humped bend out of a tang, it has to be heated past red. I broke two 1 1/8" tangs trying to cold bend them. Sounds as if you are using a 1" barrel, because that is the size the flint tangs are. Getting an 1 1/8" flint tang is a real problem, which I went through once for my .58 flint halfstock plains rifle. You can use Track's Hawken 1" Flint Breech and Tang, #Plug-FHG-16-3. The plug unhooks from the tang. Do not use the "Flint Hooked Breech", #Plug-LRF-16-3, too much extra length and weight and problems with the 1" long .360 powder chamber. If you had ground off that hump, You can solder (or even super-glue) a thickening plate on the underside as Rich suggested. I have done that once, the purpose is to have a thick tang for the countersink of the front tang bolt. As for bending the trigger plate with the 3 supports, fit a bolt into the bolt holes to prevent any cracking at that spot, if you bend in that area. Most plates have to be bent, and so do the trigger guards.

45-110 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 04, 2020, 07:09:06 PM »

Super glue for a tang reinforcement? I realize the build dilemma but that solution does not raise the bar for quality work. Hidden "fixes" like this will some day be someone else's rifle and probably after paying a good price for it based on its external looks. Machining a new tang, re-forging it or re-welding the poorly designed one is the right way. Frequently see JB weld referred to as magical metal fix, again indicative of poor work. I too have had to rework Hawken tangs.....a problem that should of been fixed years ago with the patterns used.
Not to offend, just my thoughts.
kw

Joe S. · « **Reply #13 on:** March 04, 2020, 11:42:59 PM »

These fellas know their stuff,pay attention and above all don't get discouraged.Figure on taking wood off that precarv too,that gun in tracks plan while good reference is a big girl IMHO.Study Taylor's fullstock lines,she's a nice trim gal......keep on asking questions when you need to,these fellas know them hawken rifles,enjoy the ride!

borderdogs · « **Reply #14 on:** March 05, 2020, 02:26:43 AM »

I appreciate all the advise and I will have plenty more questions. You know I thought of heating it and on reflection I might have it probably would have been a better way to get the hump out. I think L & R could have done a better job on the tang shape. I made a three point bending jig as described and plan to try it out on the broken tang. I have thought of making some of these parts but havent put a lot of thought into that yet. I have taken the trigger apart and have the lock apart too. I started to clean the lock parts a bit and have the trigger plate cleaned up. There is plenty to do on all the side projects that for sure. I took a look at Track's flint tangs and MLBS's tangs and there are a lot of out of stock and back order ones.
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2020, 03:23:05 AM »

I soldered that reinforcement under one thin tang. The super glue is a metal adhesive which will work for people who cannot solder, weld, forge. or machine a new tang. I cannot weld or forge or machine, but I have heated and bent and filed a number of tangs. There are metal adhesives commonly used in the automotive industry, if I'd called it "Sleeve Retainer", that might have sounded better.

borderdogs · « **Reply #16 on:** March 05, 2020, 04:20:13 AM »

I agree with Herb about super glue it creates a very strong bond especially if you let it cure at least 24 hours. I have used it in our manufacturing plant in some of the assembly processes. There are a number of different kinds but most I have used can make a very strong bond that is hard to break apart. That is what I used to put the tang and breech together to inlet the barrel/tang assembly. You can break the bond with pure Acetone and it will dissolve the bond. If I have to add metal to the new tang I will braze it on but if I couldnt do that I wouldnt have a problem using super glue.
Rob

borderdogs · « **Reply #17 on:** March 05, 2020, 05:16:47 PM »

Also as mentioned it would be possible to machine a new tang in my manufacturing plant we have a full machine shop that is CNC capable. The tang could be drawn on Solid Works software then run on a CNC mill. It would start with a billet of soft steel with enough thickness to allow for a purchase in a vise so it could be machined on one side first, in profile. Then a soft jaw (machined out of 6061 aluminum) would made to the shape of the tang so the machined side of the billet would be held in the soft jaws. Then what was left in the billet would be machined off leaving a tang in the correct profile. If it were made to replace the hooked tang I broke the standing portion of the hook could then be machined. This portion of the machining would leave a radius on the four corners of the rectangular opening that would have to be filed square but depending on the end mill diameter the radius would be small. If it were a flint tang the machining process would involve a lathe. So, to finish the hooked breech the top view profile would be the last to machine.

This would involve a lot of work in drawing, milling and making soft jaws but once you have the program and soft jaw another one could be made much more easily.

I considered doing this then broke out the credit card and got a replacement..............one could ponder...what would the Hawken brothers do with a CNC set up and Solid Works software?
With respect,
Rob

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #18 on:** March 05, 2020, 05:24:18 PM »

Then we might have seen Hawken rifles for real in the large numbers made up by novelists and screen writers!

Dphariss · « **Reply #19 on:** March 06, 2020, 04:28:05 PM »

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on March 03, 2020, 07:57:57 PM

I've done a couple of full stocked flint J & S Hawken rifles and agree with Rich that a tang known as a "flint tang" would be more appropriate. Here's a Don Stith rifle I built with such a tang.

For a fur trade era FS Hawken, flint or otherwise this is the correct long tang IMO. Its shown on an mid-1830ish FS rifle in plates 36-40 in Baird's "Hawken Rifles..." Don King used this tang on all his FL Hawkens starting about 1969-70. I say its 1830ish due to the nipple seat which is on a protrusion forged when the barrel was welded. Or the remote possibility it was brazed on which I doubt based on close examination of the early/mid 1830s 1/2 stock J&S rifle in the Montana Historical Society Collection. Which BRW has a short tang standing breech and a short bar set triggers and a TG nearly identical to the "Petersen" rifle. But IMO I am sure the Hawken shop made FL rifles with a tang like this.
Given the FL was still in wide use past the end of the "rendezvous" era in the West.
I rebarreled a Don King FL Hawken for a friend and machined a new breechplug from round stock. PITA but it looked good when I was done. The tang was thicker than that found on store bought plugs.

borderdogs · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2020, 12:22:21 AM »

Dphariss, Thanks for the insights! The thought I had was to mill a billet in profile to get the shape right. If doing a flint tang leave enough of the billet to turn it on a lathe and turn the threads on it as well while it is in the lathe. But as you show a breech plug can be made using round stock and would make more sense to do it that way than using a billet. In machining anything the way to hold it while machining the piece is of the utmost importance.
Rob

borderdogs · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2020, 04:10:18 PM »

Hi Guys,
I am still working on putting the breech plug to the barrel hopefully finish that soon. I don't find this aspect of the project fun and although I don't mind tedious projects this one I have found very difficult. I have been using a file, Dykem blue, and a small square plus a loop to see how its coming up close. I am about .020-.025" away from closing the gap and I think it will close up pretty well but taking it very slow. Using feeler gauges to measure what is left to file.

So I had been thinking of sending the breech plug, tang, lock, buttplate, and trigger guard & plate out for color case hardening. But while working on the breech plug I thought maybe I would brown the plug with the barrel. One reason why was once in place I don't want to remove it again. Also I was thinking that at some point I have to drill and tap the vent for a Jim Chambers White Lighting vent and I am really not sure about that. Once I locate its position on the barrel I figured I would have to remove it right? I am a ways away from doing that but it is something I keep coming back to.

I have my replacement tang and have it bent to shape and the tang face fitting the hook breech plug good. The tang is not quite straight so I have to fix that and I plan to do that with heat. So I do have a few of questions I need help on:

1) Would not having a color case hardening on the breech plug look funny if the buttplate, tang, lock, trigger guard, and lock plate are color case hardened?

2) How to deal with the frizzen? I haven't tried it to see if it sparks but if I send it out to have the lock color case hardened what about the frizzen?

3) I have fitted the barrel, lock, trigger, and buttplate fitted to the stock but have not drilled anything yet. Once I get the breech plug installed onto the barrel and get the tang and barrel fitting in the stock correctly I will drill the tang and lock screws. So my question to you all is how best to approach cleaning up and finishing the various parts to get them ready for color case hardening. How far do I go to finishing these parts I have been using files, sand paper, and polishing wheels, what is the best way to do it and to what level?

Again, I have some pictures I have taken along the way but plan to post some when I get the project a little further along. As always I really appreciate all the help and suggestions,
Rob

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2020, 04:26:22 PM »

Rob, once the insert for the touch hole is installed, you will need to smooth up the interior so your cleaning doesn't get tangled with the threads. I use a Dremel with a diamond bit, very gently. I also use a flexible shaft on the Dremel, as the handpiece is smaller and it's easier to use accurately.

I've not seen a color case-hardened tang, but I am sure that there is one someplace. The ones I've seen get the same treatment as the barrel.

rich pierce · « **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2020, 05:37:55 PM »

Most original Hawken rifles retain little of the original finish. If you’re going for “as new” the color case hardening the tang is seen as correct by several experts. If you’re good with an oxyacetylene torch you can fake it by getting local tempering colors. Not durable but has a look.

Marcruger · « **Reply #24 on:** March 17, 2020, 08:05:33 PM »

"So with two of the rods strapped to the vise, I place the tang between them and the adjacent jaw, and place the third rod where I want to make the bend. Closing the vise onto the tang now presses the middle rod against the tang exactly where I want to initiate a bend, and the metal moves easily."

Thank you Taylor. I learn something new every day.

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Author Topic: Full stock Hawken build (Read 4299 times)