Buckles

[Randy Hedden]

The trend today among many bag and horn makers is to use a hand forged iron buckle.  I actually prefer brass buckles for my bags and horn straps.  I have heard Roland Cadle say that brass buckles on a horn strap or bag strap would have been unusual because brass was to expensive.

Was brass actually more expensive than a hand forged iron buckle?  In the same colonial time period most American made rifles and fowlers appear to have had brass mounts.  This debate about brass vs iron mounts will go on forever and I don't wish to talk about it here, but just note the proliferation of brass mounted rifles being made in the very same towns and cities that the horners, harness makers and leather workers worked in. If cast brass was so expensive then wouldn't it seem like more rifles would have been mounted in iron?  Following that thought, why would the bag makers and horn makers not have used cast brass buckles?  Shoe buckles of the same time period were commonly cast brass or even cast silver.  I am sure that a cordwainer or harness maker would have had easy access to brass buckles.

Now I can imagine that someone living on the frontier might not have had access to brass or the facility to cast it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would have used forged iron buckles.  I would rather believe that they installed straps on powder horns and made bag straps, both without any buckles??

If I am thinking right here, why do so many bag makers and horn makers who are making colonial accoutrements use forged iron buckles?  Maybe using hand forged iron buckles just goes along with making heavily antiqued, grungy looking  bags and horn straps??

Randy Hedden

 

[T*O*F]

Now I can imagine that someone living on the frontier might not have had access to brass or the facility to cast it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they would have used forged iron buckles.  I would rather believe that they installed straps on powder horns and made bag straps, both without any buckles??

Randy,
I would tend to agree with that assessment, and might add that those bags were probably sewn by the woman of the house rather than the man.  This would probably even hold true for rural made bags in civilized areas.  Most likely they were utilitarian, not fancy; and were used up in their lifetime.  Remember, it was the youngsters who hunted pot meat because the ole man and older sons were doing the heavy labor.

[Artificer]

I am not sure how much more expensive brass was than iron, though of course it was, but actually laying hands on quantities of brass was much more difficult in colonial times and that would have made it more expensive.  (Pewter was less expensive than brass and it was considered a "gentlemany metal" as late as the 1750's and as a sign of at least some status). Even Brass Founders usually got their brass from recasting broken pieces of brass that had been imported from England or Europe.   The zinc for brass came from calamine back then and here's a good link on it:

http://www.reference.com/browse/calamine+brass

Brass products were imported from England, but sources for Iron were available locally, if illegally.  Much of the brass products coming to the colonies came into New England as Boston was such a huge city back then.  Of course, Virginian and other southron planters ordered brass products directly from England in payment for their crops and goods they sent to England -- under Mercantilism.

Iron was being illegally and legally mined and smelted in the 17th and 18th centuries.  The illegal parts was when they ran afoul of the Mercantilism laws about only exporting raw goods to England.  There was a forge at Jamestown, VA in 1621.  The Saugus Iron Works in Massachusetts is known as the first such in America in 1646.  I am not sure when it was "Officially Approved" by Royal Charter, though.  Here in Virginia, Governor Spotswood set up a small colony of German immigrants to smelt and produce Iron at Germanna Forge in Culpeper county in 1722.   It has often been suggested that the Governor did NOT have Royal approval to do that when he set them up in 1722.   The Governor made extra "side money" by investing in the works there - whilst Colonial Williamsburg also received it's Royal Charter in 1722.

Iron and iron working was much more available by blacksmiths, even on the frontiers or places far from towns or cities.  As such, buckles could more easily have been made in most shapes desired and done by the local blacksmith when needed from iron on hand.  

We may also consider that though the buckle bodies of brass buckles were made of brass, the buckle tongues were usually made of iron into the early 19th century both for strength and to save the cost of brass.

[Artificer]

Randy,
I would tend to agree with that assessment, and might add that those bags were probably sewn by the woman of the house rather than the man.  This would probably even hold true for rural made bags in civilized areas.  Most likely they were utilitarian, not fancy; and were used up in their lifetime.  Remember, it was the youngsters who hunted pot meat because the ole man and older sons were doing the heavy labor.

Though Indian women normally made shot pouches, I would have thought making shot pouches would have fallen to rural men as it went along with repairing leather items like oxen and horse tack, etc.   

[T.C.Albert]

Not that it directly applies, but I would also ask what was most commonly used on basic horse tack in the questioned era?...and in the military by foot soldiers...and even on shoe and belt buckles for the common man or the aristocrat?...I suspect pre-made buckles of similar materials would have been available to most saddle and leather shops as well ?....a salvaged buckle from any of those sources would suffice for a homespun bag, and the professional makers would have access the commonest commercial goods...which ever those were. ( ie: iron or brass???)

I expect there was a variety rather than a hard rule....and I wouldnt be surprised to see very fancy buckles used with rather primative pouches....
in the old country rude Scottish highlanders cast their silver into fancy buttons and literally wore their wealth...and the French in this country were notorious for their dress...it was the best fashion from Paris, or as close as they could get...I would think fancy buckles were popular as well?

Just my thoughts...
TCA

[Randy Hedden]

Not that it directly applies, but I would also ask what was most commonly used on basic horse tack in the questioned era?...and in the military by foot soldiers...and even on shoe and belt buckles for the common man or the aristocrat?...I suspect pre-made buckles of similar materials would have been available to most saddle and leather shops as well ?....a salvaged buckle from any of those sources would suffice for a homespun bag, and the professional makers would have access the commonest commercial goods...which ever those were. ( ie: iron or brass???)

Just my thoughts...
TCA

Tim,

Good question, I don't have any idea what was used for military foot soldiers accoutrements, but I would think that, in colonial times, buckles on horse tack would have been used and reused on new made horse tack until the buckles wore out and had to be replaced.  I believe there just wouldn't have been a whole lot of tack buckles available for use on straps.

As far as the availability of brass buckles to professional leather workers, if the gunsmiths had brass mounts available it would seem that the professional leather worker next door or down the street would have had brass available to them and hence brass buckles.

Randy Hedden   

[James Rogers]

It is romantic to think we as Americans made everything we used but for the colonial time frame importation of finished items was a big thing. 
Tim brings up a good point about available horse tack, etc. 
Brass and other items made it past the frontier to the natives.  There were short time spans in Kentucky and other areas where items may have been unavailable but for the most part trade of finished goods eventually reached the outskirts. Even cloth was imported in numerous amounts and made it westward.
I think the hand forged buckles are more of a reenactorism or contemporary style to show another handcrafted talent. If a buckle of iron or steel was used it certainly was not the rustic styles we see on contemporary work to any degree frequency.

[Randy Hedden]

Artificer,

Of course there were other sources for brass and brass products then what you have mentioned.  There was a large illicit trade going on with China during colonial times.  Although it was officially illegal to trade with anyone but England, tons and tons of illicit goods were smuggled into the colonies from trade with China.  Although the products brought from China were mostly second grade Chinese silk and Tons and tons of opium, China had the facility to produce brass in huge quantities. If brass was at a premium in the colonies it could have been just another cash product brought in from China.

We tend to think that most of the imported goods coming into the colonies were from England or some of their other territorial holdings.  Literally  tons and tons of hides and horns from Spanish steers were imported into the colonies, mainly from Mexico, what would become southern California, Texas and Puerto Rico.  (However, that's a subject for another thread.)

I have read accounts where people pulling up stakes and moving  further into the frontier would burn down their cabin or house and salvage the nails and other iron hardware.  In fact this practice became so prolific in some areas that laws were enacted to try and stop the practice.  A good blacksmith could make an awful lot of nails in an hour.  I just read an account where the blacksmith made over 2,400 nails in a 12 hour period, 200 plus nails each hour.  It wouldn't seem that iron and iron nails would have been that cheap  or available if people were salvaging them from burning their cabins and houses.

Randy Hedden

 

[Artificer]

I would suggest a whole lot of what may be "authentic" has to do with the economic status of the person one is reenacting.  

I also can't see using horse tack buckles for other things commonly as they would have re-used the horse tack buckles for horse tack.  Until or unless the horse died and you couldn't afford another.  

Shoe buckles were quite small and plain for common people up through the 1760's.  That's IF the person could afford shoes.  Rural people often went barefoot when they could to protect their shoes because they were so expensive.   Even what we may consider plain brass buckles were actually thought of as "men's jewelry" to a degree.

Brass buckles were more common for sailors and the military to stand up to sea salt spray and hard use.  However, the Kiing paid for military buckles for enlisted men unless the soldier lost them.   Here's a good link to actual period buckles from the period:

http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm



 

[Randy Hedden]

I think the hand forged buckles are more of a reenactorism or contemporary style to show another handcrafted talent. If a buckle of iron or steel was used it certainly was not the rustic styles we see on contemporary work to any degree frequency.

Capt,

I have to agree and this is one of the reason I posted my original message.

Randy Hedden

[Artificer]

Randy,

Other Chinese imports included tea (great smuggler's item) and porcelain.  Some Chinese art and even furniture was also imported.  But if there is a generalization about what was imported by China, it would have to be items that were expensive and for the upper classes - except for opium that was such a huge money maker.  Chinese scissors came in because the Chinese had a longer history of working iron and steel.  Some Chinese brass products did come in, but I've never heard of a reference to it other than as finished products and then not common at all.

Copper could have come in from South America, through the Dutch and Spanish trade, but zinc was not common here then.   I would suggest most of the illegal brass would have come in through the Dutch trade as Swedish and Spanish copper was available to them.

[G. Elsenbeck]

I think we're all right to some degree.  I think the 18th century economic realities of the days ruled first.  Brass was expensive, but not as plentiful as iron items.  All brass was imported (and subject to some boycotts), but iron items were made here wherever a blacksmith was located and supplies of his raw materials were near.  I'm sure gunmakers and harness makers had access to his brass items whether they were brass sheets or buckles provided they ordered in sufficient in quantity to last them for awhile.  Remember that during the revolutionary time much imported of items ceased.  And again during the War of 1812.  
Anyway, I'm not so sure harness makers would have large quantities of brass buckles for tack.  Wouldn't the farmers have prefered iron tack because of strength and easy of repairs vs. brass?  Just a thought.  And if harness makers made hunting bags wouldn't they have more likely to used iron buckles unless the customer requested brass instead?  If it was less expensive I'm sure our harness maker would have made things with iron to make more profit.  The 'citied gentry' would probably want the brass, but the actual ones to use the products would be just as happy with the iron.  
Just my two cents for what its worth.
Gary

[Randy Hedden]

Randy,

Other Chinese imports included tea (great smuggler's item) and porcelain.  Some Chinese art and even furniture was also imported.  But if there is a generalization about what was imported by China, it would have to be items that were expensive and for the upper classes - except for opium that was such a huge money maker.

Artificer,

Yes, I was just trying to indicate that a lot of merchandise was smuggled into the colonies from various places.

Interesting to note that Chinese officials would not allow the trade of their finest quality silk, tea, or porcelain to the colonial smugglers.  Almost everything the Chinese traded with us was second or third grade.  Not only was the tea of poorer quality from less desirable types of tea plants, but it was described as being full of stems and other non-desirable ingredients.  Of course the opium was for and used by all classes in the American colonies.

Randy Hedden

[Artificer]

I think we're all right to some degree.  I think the 18th century economic realities of the days ruled first.  Brass was expensive, but not as plentiful as iron items.  All brass was imported (and subject to some boycotts), but iron items were made here wherever a blacksmith was located and supplies of his raw materials were near.  I'm sure gunmakers and harness makers had access to his brass items whether they were brass sheets or buckles provided they ordered in sufficient in quantity to last them for awhile.  Remember that during the revolutionary time much imported of items ceased.  And again during the War of 1812.  
Anyway, I'm not so sure harness makers would have large quantities of brass buckles for tack.  Wouldn't the farmers have prefered iron tack because of strength and easy of repairs vs. brass?  Just a thought.  And if harness makers made hunting bags wouldn't they have more likely to used iron buckles unless the customer requested brass instead?  If it was less expensive I'm sure our harness maker would have made things with iron to make more profit.  The 'citied gentry' would probably want the brass, but the actual ones to use the products would be just as happy with the iron.  
Just my two cents for what its worth.
Gary

I agree Gary.  

The wealthy country planters in the south would also have had more utilitarian brass items to reflect their economic status.  

Polished Copper and Brass items were also traded to the Indians, BUT that would more likely to have been because they preferred the "glitz" and you could get more skins for them.  Copper items also weighed less and you could transport more of it on pack animals as well.

[Artificer]

Randy,

Other Chinese imports included tea (great smuggler's item) and porcelain.  Some Chinese art and even furniture was also imported.  But if there is a generalization about what was imported by China, it would have to be items that were expensive and for the upper classes - except for opium that was such a huge money maker.

Artificer,

Yes, I was just trying to indicate that a lot of merchandise was smuggled into the colonies from various places.

Interesting to note that Chinese officials would not allow the trade of their finest quality silk, tea, or porcelain to the colonial smugglers.  Almost everything the Chinese traded with us was second or third grade.  Not only was the tea of poorer quality from less desirable types of tea plants, but it was described as being full of stems and other non-desirable ingredients.  Of course the opium was for and used by all classes in the American colonies.

Randy Hedden

You make good points about the quality of the smuggled Chinese goods.  What is kind of interesting is that the Chinese never seemed to have figured out how valuable their scissors were here.  Even if they were second rate, they were still quite good enough and cheap enough that they were very valuable here.  Also, iron products like that make good ballast on wooden ocean going vessels of the day.

[Tim Crosby]

Why did they have buckles? To fit different sized people, to lengthen the strap when more cloths were needed for cold weather. I would think that buckles forged, brass, no matter what the material would have been used more on commercially made bags. On a home made bag I would imagine the maker would sew one side flip the strap over his shoulder, mark it, cut it and sew it, one piece. If he was a forward thinker he may have made a two piece strap one longer than the other, punched a number of holes in both ends and used a lace to connect the two, easy to lengthen or shorten as needed. If the horn was attached to the bag only one adjustment would be necessary. If the horn strap is separate there are a couple of things to take into consideration, if there was a knob for the strap on the base slits could be made in the strap to move it up or down, if there is a staple the strap could be pulled through and knotted to adjust or a fold could be made in the strap and tied off to adjust it. I'm sure there are may more ways to adjust straps, just leave it up to the ingenuity of the user. Or they could have used any old buckle that they had. I like brass on eastern horn straps and steel/iron on southern horns.
Who knows.

Tim C.
   

[Artificer]

Excellent point on not having a buckle at all, Tim.

If one was poor enough, one would have not used a buckle at all.  Again, this goes back to the status of the person one is reenacting. 

And to expand on something you wrote, a buckle that was "out of fashion" for the gentry would have been handed down to laborers, slaves or possibly sold or traded.  So one could have seen a rather high status 1720 era buckle, on someone of lower status, 30 to 50 years later. 

[Randy Hedden]

Shoe buckles were quite small and plain for common people up through the 1760's.  That's IF the person could afford shoes.  Rural people often went barefoot when they could to protect their shoes because they were so expensive.   Even what we may consider plain brass buckles were actually thought of as "men's jewelry" to a degree.

And then there were lots of shoes worn by poorer folk that were simple one eyelet tie shoes.

Brass buckles were more common for sailors and the military to stand up to sea salt spray and hard use.  However, the Kiing paid for military buckles for enlisted men unless the soldier lost them.

There are several accounts of common British soldiers being flogged for cutting a button/buttons off their uniform and trading it to a camp follower or sutler for what the soldier needed.  I am not sure that this indicates the worth of the brass buttons or whether it was a discipline thing to keep the soldiers from dealing with the camp followers and sutlers?.  

Here's a good link to actual period buckles from the period:

http://www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htm

Nice website, I will have to go back and really read the whole thing.

Randy Hedden

[G. Elsenbeck]

Yes, what Tim says is correct.  I'm sure beside the individual making his own there would be no need for any buckles.  Even the harness maker making bags for customers may not have had buckles because he would know how long to make a strap.  But, if he was likely to have an apprentice or two they may have been making for future sales and may have had buckles, probably made of iron.  Being something less expensive vs. brass iron use would have kept the harness makers profit higher.  But as Tim said, there was more ways to accomodate adjustability with use of either brass or iron buckles.
Gary

[G. Elsenbeck]

I think the same concept is with the current bag makers today using buckles on their bags because we're trying to make a product to reach a larger percentage of potential customer base.  In that regard we're not all that different from those in the 1700s.

Gary

[BrownBear]

I have nothing but instinct and a hardscrabble rural upbringing to base it on, but always figured the source of small buckles was the same then as I use now.  Worn out horse tack.  

Leather straps in regular use can go pretty quick even with care, leaving behind all the small hardware till you get more leather.  Why not use them on something other than tack?   Most I ever paid at a farm sale was $7 for two five gallon buckets full of rotting and cracked tack, but there must have been several hundred dollars worth of small buckles in them.

[Randy Hedden]

I have nothing but instinct and a hardscrabble rural upbringing to base it on, but always figured the source of small buckles was the same then as I use now.  Worn out horse tack.

I have salvaged many  sets of harness over the years in order to use the buckles,  but during the 18th century it is more likely that when the harness and reins wore out the buckles were reused on the replacement set.

Leather straps in regular use can go pretty quick even with care, leaving behind all the small hardware till you get more leather.  Why not use them on something other than tack?   Most I ever paid at a farm sale was $7 for two five gallon buckets full of rotting and cracked tack, but there must have been several hundred dollars worth of small buckles in them.

The reason that you and I, Tim Albert and many others have a chance to buy old horse tack is that when the gasoline powered tractor replaced horses and horse drawn equipment the tack was hung in the barn and was eventually sold at a farm sale.  The leather part of the tack hanging in the barn was not cared for for many years and when sold at a farm sale the only salvageable parts of the tack were the buckles and other hardware. 

[T.C.Albert]

The best buckles I ever salvaged were some very fine brass ones from Italian made race horse halters...
They had engraved name plates with the horses names and everything...

Back to the topic at hand, I was just of the opinion, or rather assumption, that even in the infancy of the
industrial revolution, gang casting brass buckles was cost competitive to single forging wroght iron buckles...in fact, although Im sure they must exist, in my personal experience, I am not sure that I have ever even seen an antique, striated and truly wroght iron hand forged buckle. Alot of cast steel ones, but that was a later technology I think, lots of cast brass ones...and lots of more modern mild steel contemporary forged ones...isnt there a difference or am I barking up the wrong tree.

Also, if I was a saddler that also made pouches professionally...my buckles would be obtained in bulk I would suppose, and used for the project at hand...saddle, harness, or pouch...let the end user recycle or refurbish as he wants, I would make new stuff with new parts...thats the basic technical difference between a "cobbler" and a saddler or cordwainer I think...so if I were likewise a cobbler, Id do what I could to fix what needed fixing with what was provided at hand...and again, were i a backwoodsman, I would likely just make do.

Just my own ramblings here, great topic...
TCA




 

[Ky-Flinter]

Seems like I remember in The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch book, Mr. Grant stating that strap buckles were rarely used back in the day.  I don't think there was even one pictured in his book.

That being said, I put buckles on the last 2 bags I've made, 1 iron, 1 brass.  Haha

-Ron

[Randy Hedden]

Back to the topic at hand, I was just of the opinion, or rather assumption, that even in the infancy of the
industrial revolution, gang casting brass buckles was cost competitive to single forging wroght iron buckles...

Tim,

I would think so too and the Industrial Revolution started in this county in approximately 1780 and had been going on in England since the 1750's. People tend to think that everything in the 18th century was made by hand labor, but by the end of the 18th century, in this country, it was well on its way to being in full swing.

BTW, I think that we both have a lot of "cobbler" in us.

Randy Hedden