Blending ramrod groove into thimble inlets

[eagle24]

I have my thimbles inlet and am starting to shape the upper forestock.  The thimble inlets are wider than the ramrod groove.  Do I widen the groove to match the outer portion of the inlet, or leave the groove as is and blend it?  If I blend it, it looks like there will be a slight swell just above each thimble?  is that correct?

[Stophel]

Shape the fore end as if there were no rod pipes.  Let the rod pipes stick out.

[eagle24]

Shape the fore end as if there were no rod pipes.  Let the rod pipes stick out.

So there will appear to be a notch in the line created by the ramrod groove at each thimble location when looking at a side view?

[rdillon]

Shape the fore end as if there were no rod pipes.  Let the rod pipes stick out.

So there will appear to be a notch in the line created by the ramrod groove at each thimble location when looking at a side view?

Yes, that is the way to do it and it will appear as a "notch".  Just be very careful not to damage the inlet around the thimble when finishing the shaping it gets VERY thin around there.

[Ky-Flinter]

A notch when looking at the side of the gun???  I guess I'm just not getting it.  

My thought would be the side view of the wood edge of the RR groove, i.e. the bottom of the stock along the RR should be a straight unbroken line from the entry pipe out to the end of the RR groove.  At least half the diameter of the RR should show, some say 2/3's should show.

I inlet the RR pipes so that the inside radius of the pipe matches up to the inside radius of the wood in the RR groove.  

The thimble inlets are wider than the ramrod groove.  Do I widen the groove to match the outer portion of the inlet...?

 Correct, the thimble inlets will be wider than the RR groove, but if you widen the (wood) RR groove to match the inlet, you will have an unsightly gap, IMHO.

I'm not sure what you mean by blending and ending up with a slight swell at each pipe.  Maybe some pictures would help?

-Ron

[eagle24]

KyFlinter,

Like you, I inletted my thimbles so the inside matches the rr groove.  This is hard to explain (for me anyway) but I will try.  Imagine the stock is still squared.  Thimbles are inlet and the inside of the thimbles is smooth to the rr groove.  At each thimble, the thimble extends outside of the edge created by the rr groove.  Now...I'm shaping the stock first by removing material between two lines.  One line is the corner created by the ramrod groove, the other is a line drawn on the side of the stock (basically taking off the corners of the stock).  With the thimbles removed, the line created by the ramrod grooves notches out at each thimble.  When I remove the material from the corners of the stock, if I go all the way to the ramrod groove it will create a slight notch at each thimble unless I alter the angle and leave a slight swell at the thimbles.  Make sense?

[flehto]

Whether the notch { side view}  is there or not depends on the width of the flat on both sides of the RR groove. W/ cast, thicker walled pipes and because I want less land {1/16"} on either side of the RR groove, a notch develops. I file slightly to get rid of the feather edge in the bottom of the notch. W/ thinner "homade" pipes using .03-.04 brass there isn't a notch w/  1/16" lands on either side of the RR groove.....Fred

[NSBrown]

If I reduce the heigth of the edge of the ramrod groove to 1/8th inch (instead of 3/16th on a 3/8th inch rod groove), then the thimble rests on top of the edge and is seated properly in the groove channel. This eliminates the problem of the edge line being broken or interupted visually. The lowered edge reveals 2/3rds of the ramrod as opposed to the 1/2 that is often suggested. I think revealing 2/3rds. of the rod is just as correct...and a better solution if the builder doesn't like the results that a 1/2 rod reveal has on the appearance of the forestock line.

[Stophel]

I'm trying to find a decent photo showing rod pipes and the "notch"...haven't come up with one yet.  You don't want the flat along the rod channel to be very wide at all. 

[Stophel]

Look at this ca. 1820 Massachusetts rifle.  MAYBE you can see how the rod pipes are "notched" up into the sides of the fore end wood.  

www.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Original%20Flintlocks/Massachusetts

Best I can do at the moment, I'll try to find something else.

I think it makes a rather neater appearance to do them this way, rather than having them completely below the wood....which demands the "flat" of wood beside the rod channel be overly wide.

[LynnC]

G Hall - Yes there will be a small notch at each RR pipe location.  The inside of your pipes are flush with the RR channel.  That is correct.

Shape the upper forearm/RR groove sides straight revealing between 1/2 and 2/3 of RR - no funky swells or dips.

when the pipes are installed, you really don't notice the notch.  It's there, just don't really see it.

[LynnC]

That wasn't really clear.

Shape the outsides of the RR channel straight.  As you work down the sides to that knife edge along the RR chanel, the notches will appear & that's OK.

Hope I helped some........................Lynn

[John Archer]

Check out the last photograph of Bill Shipman's Isaiah 6:8 rifle on the Contemporary Makers Blog.

John.

[jerrywh]

There's nothing wrong with having the notches in the groove. I don't do mine that way.  On mine the edges of the groove are just very thin where the thimbles are.  Like the man said above. Just make the RR groove as if there were no thimbles and then inlet the thimbles. What ever you do don't make a waver in the forarm .

[LynnC]

I think I understand what you just said there Jerry - You must be leaving a small flat on each side of the RR groove just a tiny bit thicker than your RR pipe wall thickness, then inlet pipe, leaving a very thin web of wood along side the pipes.  I can see that would eliminate the notches in the side view.

The way I learned was to put a near knife edge on the the groove sides resulting in the notches - I think I'll have to try it your way next build.............Lynn

[LynnC]

Come to think of it, I've seen Jerry's method used when moldings are made along side the RR groove - A higher art style than I usually make - Heck, mouldings on the cheek are high art to me

So, G Hall - You got at least 2 ways to slim that fore end................Lynn

[eagle24]

Thanks for all the replies and good info.  As I continue to shape, scrape, and sand, I am starting to see how things come together.  I do have a couple of issues with this rifle that are making it more difficult.  First, the stock I used on this one was a little soft in the area of the rr groove and second, the thimbles I used are pretty thick.  What I did is took off a facet of wood to the line created by the outer inlet of the thimbles.  This left a flat area on either side of the rr groove.  Now, I'm sort of doing a blending combination of taking off a little more (which creates the notches at each thimble) and rolling the edge off the little flat on either side of the rr groove.  I think it is going to turn out pretty good.

[Roger Fisher]

AND be very cautious and do not allow any gaps around those pipes in particular those weird shaped 'barrel' types on fowlers, and more so if you enter her in a gunmakers fair for critique!~   Oh yeah!!   And I mean regardless of how minute they are!

[eagle24]

AND be very cautious and do not allow any gaps around those pipes in particular those weird shaped 'barrel' types on fowlers, and more so if you enter her in a gunmakers fair for critique!~   Oh yeah!!   And I mean regardless of how minute they are!

That's double tough with a stock that is (shall we say less than dense).  I'm not good enough at keeping a razor sharp chisel yet.  Fortunately, this is an iron mounted southern rifle that I'm doing somewhat an aged finish on.  There may be a spot or two that I have to rub in some darkened beeswax on this one.