Author Topic: Finished up a fowler. (Read 3831 times)

Justin Urbantas · « **on:** March 10, 2020, 02:11:40 AM »

Just got this one finished up. Black walnut stock, 42" 20 ga Colerain barrel, and Chambers Round faced English lock. I did a greyed finish on all the steel furniture.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2020, 02:26:56 AM »

That's very nice Justin. It's screaming for some engraving.......

smart dog · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2020, 02:32:33 AM »

Hi Justin,
Did you ever look at the tutorials I posted on British fowlers?

dave

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2020, 02:50:02 AM »

Quote from: D. Taylor Sapergia on March 10, 2020, 02:26:56 AM

That's very nice Justin. It's screaming for some engraving.......

This one is going to Vance from Heffley Creek. He wanted a simple, plain gun. Otherwise I would've engraved it.

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2020, 02:52:33 AM »

Quote from: smart dog on March 10, 2020, 02:32:33 AM

Hi Justin,
Did you ever look at the tutorials I posted on British fowlers?

dave

I did. I followed along with your build last year.
I know that a standing breech with a hump would be more appropriate. I would've liked 1/4" more height in the buttplate too. Any other issues you notice?

BOB HILL · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2020, 12:40:31 PM »

Great job, Justin. I like those slim lock panels. Thanks for posting.
Bob

smart dog · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2020, 03:39:11 PM »

Hi Justin,
Your gun came out nicely. Overall, you got the correct profile pretty well and my comments are meant to help you with the details. I assume your objective was an English fowler. With that in mind, the gun should have a standing breech and hook and given the mid-18th century style, a raised sighting groove in the standing breech. It also should have barrel keys rather than pins. The ramrod pipes should be 5/16" not 3/8" which will allow the forearm to be slimmer particularly at the step. The baluster wrist could extend further into the butt and the radius defining the comb should be more parallel with the wrist such that the shadow it creates does not intersect the top of the comb as yours does. The top of your comb is too close to parallel with the barrel like a Brown Bess and should angle downward slightly more toward the butt plate. The tails of your lock panels stick out a lot suggesting to me that the wrist could be wider. It also appears the side plate panel is shorter than the lock panel. You did a nice job on the width of the flat around the lock. Carved beaver tails would enhance them greatly but many English fowlers of that period did not have them. Below are photos of some original fowlers that illustrate my comments.

dave

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2020, 05:45:03 PM »

Thank you for the advice Smart Dog. I'll apply that knowledge to my next English fowler.
This gun was made as a pretty basic, no frills gun.
My main reasoning for not using a standing breech, is a lack of availability. None of the typical suppliers have any, and I couldn't get through to The Rifle Shoppe after multiple phone calls.
I don't have a welder or machine tools to make one myself.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2020, 05:51:58 PM »

Quote from: Justin Urbantas on March 10, 2020, 05:45:03 PM

Thank you for the advice Smart Dog. I'll apply that knowledge to my next English fowler.
This gun was made as a pretty basic, no frills gun.
My main reasoning for not using a standing breech, is a lack of availability. None of the typical suppliers have any, and I couldn't get through to The Rifle Shoppe after multiple phone calls.
I don't have a welder or machine tools to make one myself.

Your gun is fine. Not every English fowling gun lives up to smart dogs criteria. Most everything that got to the colonies did not have a standing breech or keys. I have one here that has no standing breech or keys. Look in "Frontier Guns" By T.M. Hamilton. Take a look at the "Duncan" fowler. My gun is an exact duplicate. Guns of this quality were seen far more often in the colonies than the high end guns that mainly stayed in England.
You did really well with it.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2020, 06:02:16 PM »

I even have pictures! I think this is post 1785 and possibly made for the indian trade in the 1812 era. The trigger guard would lead you to believe otherwise but I'm dating the gun by the lock which is marked "Ketland & Co. Very slim gun with a 48" barrel and a very petit wrist, no spare wood any where even though it isn't a high grade gun. Your fowling gun is probably the best work I've seen you do, very well executed.

hawkeye · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2020, 06:09:01 PM »

I think everyone has his ideas of what's look better, I find it a nice gun.
Only got tot bend the barrel that it's shoot where you aim 😉

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2020, 01:13:07 AM »

Justin, you did VERY WELL on your fowler. A body would be proud top shoulder it early in the morning as the ducks begin their daily hunt for food!

Bob McBride · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2020, 01:58:20 AM »

Very nice work Justin.

smart dog · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2020, 02:48:41 AM »

Hi Hawkeye,
No, it has nothing to do with what looks better in some eyes but what is historically accurate. My point is not that someone should build a gun as I suggest but that if someone wishes (and Justin did not say this but I suspect he had this in mind) to call a gun an English fowler, it should look like and be made like an English fowler. I respectfully disagree with Mike Brooks because he mixes trade guns, low quality export guns and British-style American fowlers with guns typically called English fowlers. If someone made a gun that they said was a Lehigh rifle that did not have the profile or details of a Lehigh, folks on this forum would say something. The same holds for English guns. They have certain details that changed over time and many on this forum are not familiar with those details as they are about American guns. Because I always walk the walk as well as talk the talk, I posted a multi-part tutorial on understanding British fowlers and another on building a historically correct English fowler. Those tutorials are loaded with detailed information about those guns gleaned from original examples that I own, examined in collections and museums, or of which I obtained photos. This forum is not just about making muzzleloading guns. It is as much or more about the study and recreation of American longrifles and their historically relevant associates, which include English fowlers. Therefore, understanding and recreating historical details is an important part of our mission.

dave

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #14 on:** March 11, 2020, 04:54:57 PM »

Well I guess I've been taken to the wood shed now!

My point is, The original I posted pictures of meets none of the requirements of your description of an English fowling gun yet it IS an English fowling gun. The guns you posted pictures of are fine guns that I have always admired. Few of this type of gun made it to the colonies as they were quite expensive. The common export grade of English fowling gun is what I posted pictures of and they were quite common. I thought Justin's gun hit an export grade fowling gun pretty well. With some engraving it would be just about spot on. I have almost always made an export style of English fowling gun as nobody can afford to pay me to make a high end classic English fowling gun with a hooked breech and keys. The quality of my engraving doesn't reach the level of "best" guns either so I have stuck to making Export quality as that grade meets my skill level better. There is a certain price point I have to stay under in order to make a living, generally I have to stay under 4K as the air gets pretty thin at that level and the addition of a hooked breech and keys will put me pretty close to that or over. You build fine guns far better than I ever did as your skill set is far above mine.
I didn't read your build along as it was pretty lengthy and don't have time to sacrifice over the minutia of high end british fowling guns even though I find them very interesting....maybe when I get retired. Honestly, due to time restraints, I don't read any of the build alongs that guys post here, probably to my detriment.
Have you ever read the material published by the Museum of the Fur Trade? There is a great article there describing the fowling guns that Sir William Johnson was ordering for his Indian allies. There were three different grades. I don't have that info in hand at the moment but it is very informative. It has some pictures of the different grades as well. Unfortunately they are typically poor quality. Justin's gun would conform very well with the Sir William guns.

hawkeye · « **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2020, 05:43:21 PM »

Hi Smartdog,
Did not wanted to doubt your opinion on historical correctness.
Sorry for that, I admire your work and craftmenship. Witch is top notch.
Just wanted to say that I liked the gun Justin build.

Hawkeye

smart dog · « **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2020, 06:28:23 PM »

Hi,
Hawkeye, I understood your intent and I am not trying to force people to accept my point of view. I was just explaining why I made the comments I did on Justin's fowler.

Mike, I did not take you to the wood shed. You know, in these times taking another guy to the wood shed could be badly misinterpreted.

FYI, the second fowler I showed likely spent its working life in America. Justin never wrote that his gun was meant as a trade gun or any gun that was used in America. The style suggests to me an English fowler and as I wrote, my comments pertain to that assumption.

dave

WadePatton · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2020, 07:31:23 PM »

Good work Justin.

Great discussion fellas.

Thanks

Glenn Hurley Jr. · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2020, 08:22:14 PM »

This thread proves “you don’t have to be disagreeable to disagree”!

Bob Roller · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2020, 10:25:43 PM »

Quote from: Glenn Hurley Jr. on March 11, 2020, 08:22:14 PM

This thread proves “you don’t have to be disagreeable to disagree”!

Oh,why not

?This is light chocolate vs dark chocolate.I would not
turn down Justin's gun if he made it for me and I will concede any day to
Smart Dog's knowledge on any of these English guns.
Bob Roller

rick/pa · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2020, 10:47:09 PM »

The problem with communication over electronic medium such as this, is that what you can say to a man's face with a smile on yours and both have a laugh about can be badly misconstrued over the "interwebs". Thank goodness this forum is one that doesn't descend into internecine warfare over an misunderstood comment. As the man says, all's well that ends well. Kudos to all, and yes, Justin, I like the fowler too.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2020, 12:01:52 AM »

Never have finished a fowler but did foul up a finish once

Does that count?
Bob Roller

t.caster · « **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2020, 01:14:50 AM »

Nice work! If it wasn't for the Coleraine barrel I would guess it is a Chambers PA Fowler kit, because I am building one right now for a forum member, and everything looks the same as yours! Not English.

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2020, 01:50:37 AM »

Thanks for all the comments guys. Mostly I based this gun on the full sized English fowler plans from TOW. I understood it was more colonial, and trade gun type rather than high grade sporting gun. I can't justify the time and materials spent on a gun of that grade just yet. Maybe when I'm making $6,000+ guns. This is a $1700 gun made for a friend.

BOB HILL · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2020, 02:08:19 AM »

A fine gun and I'm sure your friend will be very proud of it.
Bob

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Author Topic: Finished up a fowler. (Read 3831 times)