Author Topic: Flames from the muzzle  (Read 14638 times)

Offline Randall Steffy

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Flames from the muzzle
« on: July 29, 2009, 01:17:34 AM »
This question grows out of a statement I heard while sitting in on a seminar at Dixon's this year. I spend 95% of my time on the builder side of this forum, so this issue may have been discussed here till dead and settled for ever. If so, do not let me stir up old injuries or belabor the matter.

It was stated that if you see fire out past your muzzle, you are only making business for the powder company. You have exceeded any level of increased benefit and should reduce your charge size until the powder is evidently burned out when the ball exits the muzzle. Something said to the effect that 50 grains is good for any distance or condition if a larger charge shows fire.

I expected to see an increased velocity, speed, even after muzzle flame was first evident, if the charge size was increased to some point of diminishing returns and then an end to increased velocity.

I ask here out of curiosity and the recognition that there are those here who should and will know these things!!

Thanks

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 01:40:45 AM »
  Take a look at the Wikipedia article on "Muzzle Flash."  The muzzle flash consists of 5 components, 4 of which appear necessary for the bullet to be leaving the barrel.  The 5th component they list is 'unburned powder' which might fit with what they said at Dixon's.   Seems to me like there is a lot of heat produced when the powder goes off and some particles are going to still be glowing when they're ejected.  Now, lots of 'sparks' may indicate unburned powder leaving the barrel. 

The 'only making business for the powder company' sounds similar to the old practice or belief (subject to debate) that you could find a max load for your gun by shooting it over snow or a piece of white paper on the ground.  If you saw unburned powder granules, you could cut the load back because powder was being ejected before it could ignite.

If they were implying there should be no bright light or flash at the muzzle, I'd have to disagree.  If they were saying you shouldn't see lots of sparks and trails of burning powder granules, they are arguably right up to a point.


Anyway, that's my thoughts on the matter.   SCL
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 01:46:48 AM by SCLoyalist »

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 02:02:37 AM »
Besides the amount of powder used, the brand of powder can make a difference. Or more specifically, the manufacturing methods may make a difference.  I ran across this in trying to photograph a patch separating from a ball in flight.  Using Goex ffg we took this photo 5 feet from the muzzle.  Obviously we won't see much with this many sparks in the way. 


We backed up and took this one 7 feet from the muzzle.  At least we could see the ball, but sparks prevented us from going on with our goal.


We later tried the same amount of Swiss ffg and took this photo only 20 inches from the muzzle.


The difference is in the way the charcoal is ground before mixing.  Swiss grinds the charcoal almost to dust.  Goex apparently does not.

We had given up on this project when we reached the point with Goex.  A conversation with Bill Knight headed us toward Swiss.  Without his advice we would have had no success.  Charcoal size definitely made the difference.

Regards,
Pletch
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Pletch
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roundball

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 02:08:23 AM »
It was stated that if you see fire out past your muzzle, you are only making business for the powder company. You have exceeded any level of increased benefit and should reduce your charge size until the powder is evidently burned out when the ball exits the muzzle.

In my very humble opinion, I don't happen to believe that...and note I am not taking issue with any individual or calling something not true...I am saying I don't happen to believe that and here's why:

Every centerfire pistol caliber that I've shot throws flame in the muzzle blast;
Every centerfire rifle caliber I've shot throws flame in the muzzle blast;
Every shotgun gauge I've shot throws flame in the muzzleblast;
Yet we know that all the common calibers, gauges, cartridges have been so fine tuned over the decades that they are well balanced and optimized.

In muzzleloaders, the same thing occurs, yet my chronograph show distinct velocity increases in every 10 grain increment of powder charges right on up the line.
I also have the same feelings about the claims of shooting over snow...I believe anything seen down on the snow is bits of fouling, not unburned powder...could be wrong...but I think about it this way:

If the tiny, faint, brief pulse off of a pan flash can ignite powder in a main charge through a tiny vent hole, I believe unburned kernels of powder that did make it out of the muzzle would instantly be ignited as they were engulfed in the huge rapidly expanding cloud of flame as everything was exiting the muzzle together...don't know how kernels could survive that if they couldn't survive a piddly little pan flash.

That's my .02 cents on the matter...

dickert54cal

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 02:34:08 AM »
It was stated that if you see fire out past your muzzle, you are only making business for the powder company. You have exceeded any level of increased benefit and should reduce your charge size until the powder is evidently burned out when the ball exits the muzzle.

In my very humble opinion, I don't happen to believe that...and note I am not taking issue with any individual or calling something not true...I am saying I don't happen to believe that and here's why:

Every centerfire pistol caliber that I've shot throws flame in the muzzle blast;
Every centerfire rifle caliber I've shot throws flame in the muzzle blast;
Every shotgun gauge I've shot throws flame in the muzzleblast;
Yet we know that all the common calibers, gauges, cartridges have been so fine tuned over the decades that they are well balanced and optimized.

In muzzleloaders, the same thing occurs, yet my chronograph show distinct velocity increases in every 10 grain increment of powder charges right on up the line.
I also have the same feelings about the claims of shooting over snow...I believe anything seen down on the snow is bits of fouling, not unburned powder...could be wrong...but I think about it this way:

If the tiny, faint, brief pulse off of a pan flash can ignite powder in a main charge through a tiny vent hole, I believe unburned kernels of powder that did make it out of the muzzle would instantly be ignited as they were engulfed in the huge rapidly expanding cloud of flame as everything was exiting the muzzle together...don't know how kernels could survive that if they couldn't survive a piddly little pan flash.

That's my .02 cents on the matter...

DITTO!

Offline Randall Steffy

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 03:21:21 AM »
Larry,
Thanks for the amazing pictures and the confounding evidence that different makers surely do make different products, even if the only difference is extent of visible muzzle blast. Often visible differences are initial evidence of other more subtile differences, or less easily quantified differences, but that is another subject.

northmn

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 05:03:59 AM »
I heard a similar arguement on using fast burning powder for short barrels.  As one individual stated do not confuse efficiency with performance.  A car may not burn fuel very efficiently but still accelerate like a scalded cat.  Similarly one may have more flash to get more velocity.  Just because it burns efficiently at some level, it may not give a desired performance.

DP

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2009, 09:16:41 AM »
Besides the amount of powder used, the brand of powder can make a difference. Or more specifically, the manufacturing methods may make a difference. <snip>

We later tried the same amount of Swiss ffg and took this photo only 20 inches from the muzzle.

The difference is in the way the charcoal is ground before mixing.  Swiss grinds the charcoal almost to dust.  Goex apparently does not.

We had given up on this project when we reached the point with Goex.  A conversation with Bill Knight headed us toward Swiss.  Without his advice we would have had no success.  Charcoal size definitely made the difference.

Regards,
Pletch
Also...
Swiss also has better charcoal for powder than Goex.
Your photos are very informative. When making BP charcoal, or rather the wood its made from and HOW the charcoal is made can make major difference in the powder.

Bill is a valuable resource for anyone that will listen to him.
Dan
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doug

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 06:52:34 PM »
     So if I understand the theory correctly, 55 gr of 3F in a .54 or 40 or so grains of 3F in a 45 is excessive, based on the flames coming out the muzzle?  The dark photo with all of the flames is not at night, just a difficult exposure in the reduced light amongst the trees at mid day.
     Daryl might be a good person to assess the amount of flame :>)  :>)

cheers Doug



« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 03:26:58 AM by doug »

roundball

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 07:51:28 PM »
I think that about sums it up !
 ;D

Offline Maven

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 11:37:40 PM »
Not taking issue with any of the above, but don't ambient lighting conditions affect the visibility of the muzzle blast in both BP and smokeless powder ( a passing fad?) firearms?
Paul W. Brasky

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2009, 11:59:42 PM »
Not taking issue with any of the above, but don't ambient lighting conditions affect the visibility of the muzzle blast in both BP and smokeless powder ( a passing fad?) firearms?

The amount of light can indeed make the fire easier to photograph.    The photo at the top, with a more normal exposure, would make me guess that Goex was the charge in the barrel. 

I noticed that there are 2 shooters.  Do you know the load of the shooter in the bottom photo?

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
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Offline Maven

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2009, 12:10:35 AM »
Larry, I'm not adept at deducing powder charges from muzzle flashes, but I'll bet many will say it was a heavy one.  However, the target appeared to be close at hand and not requiring so much powder.  In truth, I haven't the experience to make a determination.
Paul W. Brasky

doug

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 03:30:15 AM »

I noticed that there are 2 shooters.  Do you know the load of the shooter in the bottom photo

      GOEX is virtually the only powder used up here.  The bottom rifle is a .45 cal Mowry rifle with a moderate charge.  I am guessing Val was using about 40 grains of 3F Goex but don't know for sure.  I am positive it was not a heavy charge. 

cheers Doug

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2009, 03:47:55 AM »
BP produces a lot of fouling and some is ejected from the barrel.
One difference between Swiss and Goex could be the graphite.
The graphite does not burn during the combustion process. Swiss does not have graphite.
The considerable amount of  solids is why there is so much "flame" at the muzzle. The stuff is very hot and will appear to be flame when in reality its incandescent material left over from the powder burning. Since its exiting at about the velocity of the ball it may extend quite some distance from the muzzle.

A heavier charge of powder will produce more of this, it has to. Does not mean the powder has not burned and contributed to the velocity of the ball.
So  any thought that the "flame" at the muzzle indicates using too much powder needs rethinking.

So far as historical powder charges.
Col. Hanger mentions "1/2 ball weight of powder" in describing the recoil of an American rifle. The English Baker rifle used about 120 grains (it varied with the time frame).
Some of the shots taken during the rev-war indicate fairly snappy powder charges. But hinting men is not like shooting deer.

Dan
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2009, 03:28:03 PM »
The amount or lack of flame from the muzzle does not necessarily provide any indication of load performance with either black or smokeless.  The powder provides its own oxidizer source in a volume sufficient enough to obtain an efficient burn of the particular powder type. 

This topic comes up quite a bit on the smokeless side and the confusion comes from trying to compare a contained burn with an uncontained burn.  No matter if it's a gun barrel or a blast hole in rock, there is some type of charge containment.  When the fuel is ignited, it becomes a self-contained chemical chain reaction where the oxidizer and fuel mixture rapidly decompose until all of the oxidizer is consumed or the containment is breeched. 

In the case of a properly operating gun barrel, the containment is breeched when the projectile clears the muzzle.  No fuel (power) provides 100% efficiency, no matter how the fuel is consumed in a containment, there will always be some degree of inefficiency.  For example, only about 50% of the hydrocarbons in gasoline are actually burned in a common internal combustion engine; if the exhaust pressure and temperature is sufficiently increased, one would see the majority of unburned fuel oxidize as open flame once it cleared the containment of the exhaust pipe and was allowed to combine with the free oxygen in the ambient air.

Guns are no different no matter what type of powder you're running them on.  On the smokeless side, certain powders like Alliant Blue Dot and IMR 4227 can work efficiently with a given load & barrel length yet still produce quite an impressive muzzle flash.  The discussion came up about a particular 12ga cartridge load using Blue Dot where the fellow was getting a huge muzzle flash from his 20" barrel yet the same loads produce about the same amount of muzzle flash from a 36" barrel.  Reason being, the muzzle flash is generated not only by the percentage of un-consumed fuel that is present in every load but more so from the volatile gases remaining in the bore after the majority of fuel & oxidizer has been consumed within the containment.  The operating pressure of the load also plays a roll in the amount of muzzle flash one sees with a given load combination.  Loads such as the 12ga running on Blue Dot operate at less than half that of what a similar charge of Blue Dot produces in a rifle; the higher operating pressure of the rifle produces far less muzzle flash yet there is no change in the efficiency of the load.  The efficiency is determined by how much power charge is converted to useful mechanical energy.

Just where a typical piston type internal combustion engine produces less than 20% efficiency at converting the fuel to usable mechanical energy, any powder charge in a gun & load combination is going to have only "X" amount of mechanical efficiency.  Thus, no matter what the gun/load combination, a certain percentage of the fuel is going to be wasted and the tipping point becomes the trade-off between how much is wasted in relation to the obtainable mechanical energy output.  In other words, if one sees a 100fps gain per every 10gr of powder increase then at some point the 10gr powder increase only produces a 30fps gain, the tipping point of efficiency has been exceeded. 

The major difference is between a contained and uncontained or semi-contained combustion.  For instance a firecracker or stick of dynamite; when they are detonated in free air, one sees a single flash and it's all over because whatever amount of the fuel & oxidizer mixture as well as secondary flammable gases produced by the initial burn are allowed to readily combine with the ambient oxygen in the free air surround it.  When the fuel/oxidizer burn is contained such as in a gun barrel, the muzzle flash is composed primarily of waste materials.   

This pic is a little different than what we're dealing with but it's a good example.  Note the lack of flame at the muzzle but the considerable amount of flame that is visible several feet beyond it. 




Here is another example where the most intense visible flame is 80+ feet beyond the muzzle indicating the flammable materials ejected from the muzzle lacked an oxidizer.  The same is seen when blasting bore holes, the flame is never seen at the surface but rather at some distance away from it.

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Steamingspud

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2009, 09:25:00 PM »
Personally, I've been with my family that makes their own black powder and I know that you can deffinatly make a more bang for the buck against Goex. BUT, we live in an age of safety. If Goex made a powder 4 times better than the usual powder, and someone used 80 grains for whatever reason, that would be like having 320 grains of powder, which could be a bit hazardous. By being a little less effective, I would think Goex is trying to avoid lawsuit, not rip you off.
BUT, if I had a black powder rifle that shot like the deck guns of the Missouri, the M16 might be a Flintlock!

Offline frogwalking

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2009, 08:14:28 PM »
After having given this subject a good bit of thought, I have made up my mind.  I would definitely rather have flames coming out of the muzzle of my flintlock than out of anything else I can think of at the moment.  ;D
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2009, 03:54:35 AM »
Personally, I've been with my family that makes their own black powder and I know that you can deffinatly make a more bang for the buck against Goex. BUT, we live in an age of safety. If Goex made a powder 4 times better than the usual powder, and someone used 80 grains for whatever reason, that would be like having 320 grains of powder, which could be a bit hazardous. By being a little less effective, I would think Goex is trying to avoid lawsuit, not rip you off.
BUT, if I had a black powder rifle that shot like the deck guns of the Missouri, the M16 might be a Flintlock!

Its not possible to make a BP that is 4 times as powerful as Goex with the same granule size, powder makers worked at making more powerful BP for centuries. Swiss is about the equal of the old high end powders of the past and these were virtually the limit on pressure etc in firearms. Swiss will duplicate the velocity of the 19th century. Dupont and its successors will not. Goex is doing about all it is capable given the charcoal it has to use.

FFFFG will make a lot more bang than "Cannon" due to the increase in burn rate and may burst large bore guns (cannon etc) due to the rapid pressure rise. But there is a vast difference in surface area. Thus FFFFG will burn far, far faster than Cannon the peak pressure may not be that much higher but the pressure curve will be very steep and this in itself makes the barrel easier to break.

Unlike smokeless powder which is a detonating compound controlled by burn rate inhibitors BP is strictly a surface burning compound and cannot detonate. It also does not completely convert to energy thus the higher levels of fouling. It is much more energy limited than nitro-glycerine/nitro-cellulose.
These can produce velocities exceeding 5000 fps, BP is limited to about 1/2 that or less.
BP will seldom exceed (or even reach) 1600 FPS with bullets 3 calibers or more in length, the burn rate is just too slow. Smokeless will double this easily. The 416 Barrett  will move 400 grain bullets to 3200-3300 fps.

Dan
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jmforge

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2009, 04:51:58 AM »
Good points, Dan.  Actually smokeless powder will throw an 8 kilogram tungsten long rod penetrator from the barrel of a Rheinmetal 55 caliber 120mm tank gun at velocities in excess of 5400 fps, but even a smooth bore tube will only last for around 100 rounds of full power APFSDC shells.  Most of the advancements in smokeless powder in recent years have their roots not in small arms powder, but in research involving artillery propellant in the period immediately before and during WW2.  The American companies were at the forefront of this developments as the US was the leader in pretty much all things related to field artillery in the 1930's.  Roy Weatherby was able to produce his high velocity magnum cartridges because of the cannon powders created during the war.  One other little factoid is that around the time of WW1, the normal 150 grn "factory" ball loads for the 30-06 and the German 7.92 x 57 were about on equal footing.  The 30-06 had more case capacity, but the Germans had slightly better powder.  Move forward to 1942 and, all of a sudden, the very same 30-06 round is stepping out of the barrel about 150 fps faster than it did in 1918 and it moving a fair bit faster than even the hotter 7.92 loads.  That was all powder.  The same 30-06 round now, in the case of the rounds dual base "light magnum/hihg energy" powders, will actually match the original factory perfromance of the .300 H&H with 180 grn bullets and come within 75 fps of a .300 Win Mag at normal 30-06 pressures.
Black powder, on the other hand, has not advanced because there was no need.
As for the original topic, all of my smokeless guns through a muzzle flash.  The most exciting one I have ever seen was when I fired Fiocchi NATO subgun spec +P 9mm ball out of the 3.5 inch barrel of my Walther P5.  That made for a HUGE fireball. ;D Anyone who ever fire an M16 or M60 knows that you see the little starburst of flame coming out the the flash hider and that is after the bullet has travelled 20 inches and had some of the gas siponed off to cycle the action.
Edit.  As an aside, the sceintific distinction between "burning" and "detonating" compounds may really be a distinction without a difference other than the extremely fast burn rate of modern propellants and explosives.  Early hand grenades were filled with BP and when the guys in green talk about explosives like C4 and det cord, they refer to their rates of expansion as "burn rates". Modern nitro based powder will still only "explode" in a confined space, but it will burn in the open, albeit not with as much flair as BP.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 06:38:47 PM by jmforge »

Daryl

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2009, 06:28:14 PM »
whoa, guys - flame from BP guns - waste of powder or not - I say not - I'm quite certain you cannot get a descent load without flame within a normal barrel's length.  Now, if you extend the barrel to 7 or 8 feet, and the 50gr. charge in a .50 might not produce flames & therefore look efficient - but - 50gr. is not a descent load in a .50, nor is the barrel length suitable for a rifle.

Offline Brian

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2009, 06:37:11 PM »
Larry - those are fantastic pictures! 
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Colonial Riflesmith

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2009, 07:59:49 PM »
Nice pic's all. Thanks. I'm getting some good info from this thread.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2009, 04:05:27 AM »
Good points, Dan.  Actually smokeless powder will throw an 8 kilogram tungsten long rod penetrator from the barrel of a Rheinmetal 55 caliber 120mm tank gun at velocities in excess of 5400 fps, but even a smooth bore tube will only last for around 100 rounds of full power APFSDC shells.  Most of the advancements in smokeless powder in recent years have their roots not in small arms powder, but in research involving artillery propellant in the period immediately before and during WW2.  The American companies were at the forefront of this developments as the US was the leader in pretty much all things related to field artillery in the 1930's.  Roy Weatherby was able to produce his high velocity magnum cartridges because of the cannon powders created during the war.  One other little factoid is that around the time of WW1, the normal 150 grn "factory" ball loads for the 30-06 and the German 7.92 x 57 were about on equal footing.  The 30-06 had more case capacity, but the Germans had slightly better powder.  Move forward to 1942 and, all of a sudden, the very same 30-06 round is stepping out of the barrel about 150 fps faster than it did in 1918 and it moving a fair bit faster than even the hotter 7.92 loads.  That was all powder.  The same 30-06 round now, in the case of the rounds dual base "light magnum/hihg energy" powders, will actually match the original factory perfromance of the .300 H&H with 180 grn bullets and come within 75 fps of a .300 Win Mag at normal 30-06 pressures.
Black powder, on the other hand, has not advanced because there was no need.
As for the original topic, all of my smokeless guns through a muzzle flash.  The most exciting one I have ever seen was when I fired Fiocchi NATO subgun spec +P 9mm ball out of the 3.5 inch barrel of my Walther P5.  That made for a HUGE fireball. ;D Anyone who ever fire an M16 or M60 knows that you see the little starburst of flame coming out the the flash hider and that is after the bullet has travelled 20 inches and had some of the gas siponed off to cycle the action.
Edit.  As an aside, the sceintific distinction between "burning" and "detonating" compounds may really be a distinction without a difference other than the extremely fast burn rate of modern propellants and explosives.  Early hand grenades were filled with BP and when the guys in green talk about explosives like C4 and det cord, they refer to their rates of expansion as "burn rates". Modern nitro based powder will still only "explode" in a confined space, but it will burn in the open, albeit not with as much flair as BP.

This last is not quite correct. HE burns when set on fire, I heated a lot of Cs over a c-4 flame.
But you add sufficient percussion to it with the heat and its something else again. But I have, in the heat of the moment, shot holes in claymores and set them on fire with the tracers. Why the cap did not detonate I do not know.
The "burn rate" is not the rate of expansion. Its the rate at which the material is converted to energy. HE does not burn as BP does when it detonates this means the instantaneous conversion from solid to energy. If converts from a solid to energy without the time to "burn" in between. Nor does it need to be confined, though confinement can increase its effectiveness. I can stick a bar of C-4 on a tree or piece of steel and "cut" it. Do the same with a deflagrating explosive like BP and you get scorch marks unless very tightly contained and it still will not "cut" steel.
If you somehow disable the burn rate inhibitors in smokeless powder or in some other manner induce it to detonate it WILL detonate. Guncotton is the first nitro-cellulose and it has a detonation rate of about 18000 fps IIRC. It took decades to make a usable propellant from guncotton.

Gotta run
Dan
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Flames from the muzzle
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2009, 05:02:04 AM »
A cute aside here.

When I looked at old paintings of battles fought with black powder I would see red flames out the muzzles of the guns being fired.

Then there is the thing in our national anthem: "And the rockets red glare".

Never thought much about it until I started working with small batches of powder in my charcoal work.  I used a high-purity saltpeter that I purified myself.  One night I had an "incident" where I kinda blew up the wife's lupine garden with some powder I had made and used for garden fertilizer.  The high-purity saltpeter powder gave this lovely violet flame.  I had been used to seeing a yellow flame at night with GOEX.

When I was looking at early wheel mills I noted that the wheels were made from a particular type of limestone.  The descriptions satated that this wheels would wear away while miloing powder and that would lengthen wheel milling to to compensate for the decreasing weight of the wheels.  Which meant that when working a batch of black powder in a limestone wheel wheel mill there would be some calcium carbonate getting into the powder.  In a laboratory flame bead test calcium gives a brick red color to the flame.  Sodium imparts a yellow color to the flame.  At that time GOEX used a grade of saltpeter that had close to a percent of sodium nitrate in with the potassium nitrate.

So impurities in the potassium nitrate used in the black powder will, to a point, control the color of the flame produced.
This effect is seen in flare rocket motors where a good bit of calcium carbonate is used to give a vivid brick red color.  Other chemical compounds are used to produce other colors in flares and fireworks.

We joked that the authenticity police could have a field day with that at a historical reenactment shoot.

Bill K.