Author Topic: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition  (Read 6567 times)

John Morris

  • Guest
Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« on: March 16, 2020, 07:12:56 AM »
Dear folks, my name is John Morris and I am glad I have found this forum. I am a complete newbie to this craft, and the shooting. My experience in shooting is limited to my Army training on the M-16 and a few other handy destructive gadgets that attach to that rifle, and the tank busters. Then upon returning home I kept shooting in the local hills with my Win 30-30, an M1 Garand and a couple shotguns, I stayed away from the military grade firearms beside my Garand, (no longer have my Garand, had to pawn it when my wife of 30 years and I were newlyweds and on our own, in our first lil apartment, short on rent, and it's the only thing of value I had to leverage, and lost it, but hey, we kept our rent current and off the street!  ;D) only because I love the classic rifles, levers to be specific. Just recently purchased a beautiful Henry Golden Boy and absolutely love it. So as you can see, my knowledge in muzzle loading is nill, nothing. I have no idea what the purpose of a patch is, I know the rod pushes the ball down onto the powder, but I don't know how much powder is used, or anything. I have been told it's wise to start out with percussion, although I don't know why that advice is given.
I've joined the NMLRA to get the monthly magazine to read and too support a what appears to be a great organization, I don't own any muzzle loading guns or rifles. So I am here to just sit on the sidelines and watch and read for now, I would love to order a kit sometime soon to build, but I don't even know which kit is a wise one to purchase. I am not bucks up, so the research I have done, seems there are some good starter kits for under 400.

I am a Land Surveyor by day, and an avid woodworker by nights and weekends, so I feel I have a pretty good handle on the woodworking end of this craft, we'll see.

There is a club just an hour from me (We live in Riverside County, Southern California) that is part of NMLRA and I want to take my son and sit on the bleachers and watch the folks shoot for a day, just to at least see how it's done, and what the movements are to get to the point to even pull the trigger. Perhaps if I show up on the right day, there may be some folks willing to share a shot or two with me, just to feel how it's done.

So, I know you all have been asked a million times, and I did do a little search here in the forums for the answer, but not really a whole bunch to go off of,  but, do you all have a good suggestion for a kit for newbie?

Thanks for the great forum, and I hope to be here and to learn and build.

I'd like to introduce myself and my family to you all.
My son far left, myself in ARMY cap, my beautiful wife of almost 30 years, our youngest daughter in ARMY dress, and our oldest daughter getting ready to graduate college. We flew to Ft. Jackson SC a month plus ago to be with our young soldier for graduation basic training.
Again, thanks for approving my membership here, and I look forward to learning!


« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 07:25:22 PM by John Morris »

Online smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7907
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2020, 07:57:51 AM »
Hi John and welcome and also thanks for your service. Your on the right track, looking up a nearby club and seek advice and some mentorship. You also found a great site to learn about the ins and outs of most things muzzleloading. If you should venture into building you will get good sound advice from many here. It looks like you have  good strong family togetherness and muzzleloading is a great family activity. Best wishes   Smylee   :)

Offline rsells

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2020, 08:05:23 AM »
John,
Glad to have you with us.  Early on I looked at other sites, and this one is by far the best.  There are a lot of talented builders here that cover a large number of different type of rifles and are always ready to help with any questions you have.  Take care, and thanks for your service.  There are a lot of vets in this group as well.
                                                                                   Roger Sells

Online Bill Raby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1545
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2020, 08:12:42 AM »
You are getting yourself into trouble! As far as shooting goes, You Tube is your friend. For the kits, I would avoid the $400 ones. To build a nice gun you pretty much have 3 options. First is to build a kit with a pre-carved stock such as those sold by Track of the Wolf. The advantage is that they go together fairly fast. By fairly fast I mean a few months instead of a few weekends. Disadvantage is that you are likely to do some adjustment work to get everything to go together and it is not going to have square angles. Just be aware that it is more a box of rough parts than a kit. Instructions are NOT included. With something like this you are definitely building a gun instead of assembling a kit. Here is a video series showing building one of these kits. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBU_q5noQX2vCXPoDu8LJEgt-XQ8n-0nm

Second option is to build from a blank. You save a bit of money and are free to use any parts that you choose. It is actually a lot easier than building from a pre-carved stock, but it will take longer. If you decide to go this way, I would recommend getting a set of plans from Track of the Wolf. Going this way you will not have to start of by fixing anything. It seems like it would be harder than a pre-carved stock, but it is not. The disadvantage is that you will have to spend a bit of time studying the basic form of the rifle to get it right as you are carving it entirely on your own. See how that is done here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBU_q5noQX2thuowFTwLDND3-UZm3aLe4 or https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBU_q5noQX2uBSQqQ3ITN1EOt6yr2Yx2v

Third option is to build one of the Jim Kibler kits. I have never built one, but I have heard nothing but great reviews of them. It will cost a bit more, but is by far the fastest and easiest way to go. You end up with a great rifle in a fairly short amount of time. You get a fully shaped rifle that requires only a minimal amount fitting to put together. His kits are very high quality. The disadvantage is that Mr Kibler is the one that did most of the work. You are paying him to do all the fun parts. Here is video of his kits: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAS2xA3BU0BkkETD6QAj007A9bNZTPuFx  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAS2xA3BU0BmtiR4ouNpwDs4_7yujws78

The way to go depends on what your goal is. If the goal is to own and shoot a really great rifle, go with one of Jim Kibler's kits. They cost a bit of money and are worth it. If the goal is to build guns, then build from a blank. Its a whole lot more work but you will be a gun builder. The first couple guns might not be all that great, or maybe they will. In the end you will enjoy a gun that you built entirely yourself more than anything else, even if it is a bit rough.

As an avid woodworker you likely have the skills and probably most of the tools to go with either of these options. First step is to start off with reference books. There are several great books about gun building. Get all of them. Also get reference books specific to the type of gun that you are interested in building. This forum is a great resource. Ask a lot of questions.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15825
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2020, 10:04:31 AM »
Welcome John
 Lots of good guys on this forum. While I am not a builder, I am a shooter and will most certainly assist you with that venture when you get to that stage.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline steven baker

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 96
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2020, 11:38:21 AM »
Hello John,we have all been green at the start of our sport and hobby so dont worry,Bills advise is something to read twice as his words are on the nail . My tip is blackpowder is highly addictive, I have been doing it and enjoying it since the late 1970s take care Steven.

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2432
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2020, 03:07:10 PM »
When you go to your local club, find a couple of the guys and tell them you are brand new and are wanting to get into the sport.   I would bet that you will find yourself shooting their rifles and with them more then willing to help you as well.

For the most part ML shooters are the nicest.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline ToddCook

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2020, 03:53:55 PM »
Welcome sir, and thank you for your service. I'm new too and have been having a blast trying to learn about this stuff. These folks here are a wealth of knowledge and have been very willing to help.

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2020, 04:35:39 PM »
Oh, great....a decent guy...there goes the neighborhood....

Welcome aboard. For the first year we'll all be asking you to clean our guns.  Then we start laughing at your mistakes, criticizing your posts and so on.

JUST KIDDING

Glad to have you.  This is an outstanding source for muzzleloading.  Log in a lot in the beginning and you will be guaranteed to find a lot that is helpful.  Make use of the search, go through all the categories and ask everything you can think of.  You're going to find a very rich environment in the crafts, history, building and shooting.  Doubtless you will bring a lot to the table.

Make sure you kiss your M-1 goodbye when you trade it in for that kit you absolutely have to have.

Offline moleeyes36

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2020, 05:14:02 PM »
John,

As the others have said, welcome to the forum.   I have to disagree with those that recommend starting with a percussion gun is the best way to go.  There is nothing hard to learn or mystical about a flintlock firearm.  If you buy a gun with a quality lock, it should spark well and most of your possible problems are eliminated.  Once most people shoot a flintlock they're hooked and become one of the "Spark Side of the Force".  I suggest you invest $30 in Eric Bye's book https://www.nmlra.org/store/flintlocks-a-practical-guide-for-their-use-and-appreciation.  It is a great book for someone that is starting out in flintlocks and muzzleloading in general. 

Mole Eyes
Don Richards
NMLRA Field Rep, Instructor, Field Range Officer
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2020, 05:41:56 PM »
I'm not glancing twice at 400-dollar kit.  It's around $800 for a pile of parts to make a simple gun with better components: A swamped/shaped barrel being around 250, maybe 200 on wood, 200 for a lock (flint), then the balance of the furniture and all.  I would look very sidewise at any kit for less.  Even some "good" kits come with inappropriate parts (can be subbed out if you know what to ask for).

Some folks start with a plank-and avoid lots of troubles from the "typical" pre-carved kit.  If you do choose a kit, and it's not a Kibler, then have the company OMIT the lock inlet.  This might well save some headaches.  The Kibler kit will have all inlets where they should be, they are made to a different standard. Jim has carved his own niche.  ;)

Your best bargain might be a well-made contemporary gun found on the second-hand market. Assuming you find one in a style that suits you and a pull that fits.  They come up from time to time.

Welcome to the forum.  Although we have plenty of differences of opinions here, you'll find that we've dispensed with much of the hooey and hogwash that generally floats around with regard to blackpowder shooting.  We don't discuss cartridge guns here at all, though I don't think anyone will be put off by your introductory remarks, also we don't talk about production guns much- but you'll find some for sale in the classifieds from time to time.  We try to keep all things historically-based rather than simply propellant-oriented (as you may find elsewhere). We study the antiques and replicate them and most all the things surrounding them. Enjoy.

Also you might check out Bob McBride's channel on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXoSu_qXB7Ntcaw4OgKqA1g

I too know which end of a data collector to mash on and how to find a lost pins buried in three layers of fencing and such.  I've done a lot of stuff. 

Finally, I'd not limit myself to percussion guns-they are later and only occupy a very small window of time. Flintlocks occupy a longer span of history and tend to always be more interesting and most fun.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 06:15:32 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline JPK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2020, 06:09:22 PM »
Welcome from a Army vet, and thanks to you and yours for your service.
There’s two paths that you have to follow now and both can be done in parallel. Shooting muzzle loaders and building them. To get started in the shooting I would recommend a Thomson Center percussion. Your dollar limit will buy the rifle and perhaps most of the things needed to run it. A kit at that price could be problematic. I’ve assembled a few of different makes and quality and each had their issues. At this time I’m working with a Kibler kit. This route has been a very different experience! If you ever want to build a rifle that will be a treat to work with and finish as a firearm that will have you just sitting with it on your lap to admire, this is it.
Good luck on your journey.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

John Morris

  • Guest
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2020, 02:58:59 PM »
Man what a wonderful welcome from you all! Thanks, I feel at home.
I have read every single word from you guys, and I want to thank you for taking the time to drop into my introduction and welcoming me and sending me on my "newbie" journey with tips and links and advice.
I have much to say in reply to you, been swamped with the day job and gettin in late, so I am just jumping on here to let you know I have read your thoughtful replies, I thank you very much, and I'll get back here to reply more to your posts, thanks so much guys!

A quick take away already, from your advice, I'm ready to build from scratch, well at least the stock, that sounds more appealing to me at this point.

Heading out the door now for another rainy day on the jobsite, and hope you have a blessed and wonderful day about you.
Since this is St Patricks Day, "May the road rise up to meet you!"  :)

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2532
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2020, 05:05:13 PM »
John, this squid can forgive you being a mud soldier.
You are entering a new and strange world, which is also a ton of fun.  Most fellows - and ladies - are eager to help a newcomer to learn the ropes.
Having been a wetlands and wildlife biologist, I have spent a lot of time with a big Garmin rig on my back, getting all the WP around big and little wetlands, thrashing through the underbrush.  Actually, mostly moving slow and quiet - I have walked up on foxes, coyotes, and bobcats galore, plus a black bear or two.  And in South America, coming much closer to an Onca - Jaguar - than was comfortable.  Be careful in the bushes!
I think that once you get the smell of black powder in your nose, you will be hooked for sure.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2020, 05:59:18 PM »
  Welcome John an your family too...You have received good advice already. The couple things I would suggest is to get to a couple of firearm shows pertaining to historic Muzzeloader s.
Handle as many as you can to see what you prefer. Building from scratch is a challenge. But in my opinion you will end up with much more appreciation for your accomplishment.
When an if you get ready to order your parts for the build. Come hear an ask questions about what parts are correct for the particular rife or school you want to build. It will save you money and headaches...  Enjoy...Oldtravler

Offline Bob McBride

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2840
  • TENNESSEE
    • Black Powder TV
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2020, 07:22:14 PM »
Semper Fi and Welcome.

You’ve gotten great advise so far so I’ll abstain. No question, no matter how basic, will be met with anything but thoughtful, well explained answers here. That’s what makes this forum so invaluable to all of us. Stick around.


Offline Marcruger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3702
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2020, 07:57:56 PM »
Great to have you onboard sir.  I would echo the sentiments of those saying to find a group or someone near you who already knows how to shoot muzzleloaders.  It'll save you time and aggravation. 

My advice would be to put your money into a firearms with an excellent barrel and an excellent lock.  Those are the heart and soul of a muzzleloader, and scrimping on either will leave you deeply frustrated. 

I would highly suggest getting a barrel with square bottom rifling, not round, as square is much easier to get shooting well.  The exception in my opinion being Colerain round bottom rifling, which is really good stuff.  Colerain, Green Mountain, Rice and others make good barrels. I shy away from no-name barrels.  You just never know.....

I hope this helps.  God Bless,  Marc

Offline pjmcdonald

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 220
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2020, 08:36:30 PM »
John,

Welcome from another relatively new guy. In addition to all the great advice so far, I'd add that if you can swing it, find one of the gun building classes. I took one 3 years ago and drug my then 72 year old dad with me. Time spent hands on with a pro is a real help. Time spent with my pop, learning this together, has been invaluable. He's ready to start his third build!

Regards,

Paul

Offline BOB HILL

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2281
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2020, 10:29:30 PM »
John, welcome. As others have said, I hope you enjoy this art as much as we do. This site is one of the most valuable tools you can have on your journey. Use and enjoy it.
Bob
South Carolina Lowcountry

John Morris

  • Guest
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2020, 06:08:16 PM »
It looks like you have  good strong family togetherness and muzzleloading is a great family activity. Best wishes   Smylee   :)

Thank you Smylee! I am very happy to be here, I do hope to get the entire family interested in this craft. The girls are ready to be on their own way, my son however may stick around with ol dad and get interested, my wife, it generally takes time for her to warm up to my interests, but she usually does!  :D

John Morris

  • Guest
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2020, 06:11:05 PM »
John,
Glad to have you with us.  Early on I looked at other sites, and this one is by far the best.  There are a lot of talented builders here that cover a large number of different type of rifles and are always ready to help with any questions you have.  Take care, and thanks for your service.  There are a lot of vets in this group as well.
                                                                                   Roger Sells

Thank you Roger! It's all very overwhelming right now, the more I research and more I learn there are as many styles and features in these longrifles as there are people in our country it seems. I need to settle down, and just focus on the beginnings, and not where I want to be in this craft.

John Morris

  • Guest
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2020, 06:35:54 PM »
If the goal is to build guns, then build from a blank. Its a whole lot more work but you will be a gun builder. The first couple guns might not be all that great, or maybe they will. In the end you will enjoy a gun that you built entirely yourself more than anything else, even if it is a bit rough.

As an avid woodworker you likely have the skills and probably most of the tools to go with either of these options. First step is to start off with reference books. There are several great books about gun building. Get all of them. Also get reference books specific to the type of gun that you are interested in building. This forum is a great resource. Ask a lot of questions.

Bill, thanks so much for all the wonderful advice you included in your reply, I greatly appreciate it, I have bookmarked the video links, and started watching a couple episodes at bedtime on my lil notepad.
I did just lastnight purchase this book from NMLRA "Flintlocks – a Practical Guide for their Use and Appreciation" hoping this will give me a better peek into the craft and use.

I do hope that my woodworking skills I have will help in my journey, I love building chairs so I am praying that some of my skills will come in handy for this craft. My chairs I make are nothing compared to the artistic forms the rifles undertake, the carving, the detail, the shaping, I just hope by knowing something about the direction of grain, I can adapt a tad quicker than someone who may never had any woodworking experience.
I love building my shaker chairs and rockers, this one below is a No. 7 Transitional Shaker Rocker in Curly Maple I built a few months ago almost entirely by hand tools but for the turnings of the spindles on my lathe. 



And my sculpted rockers I used to build, but no longer, I have downsized my shop considerably in my attempt to focus on building by hand tools mostly, if not entirely, these sculpted rockers required machinery with some good power, and I sold all my machines two summers ago in my quest to force myself to build by hand and on bench.
Rocker below in American Black Walnut, I did love making these sculpted rockers like the one below, but they really do require power and machinery, it's just not my thing anymore, I love my quiet shop I have now with the sound of hand made shavings and the tap tap tap of chisel on wood.



I hope I have not broken rules here by posting my images of chairs, instead of rifles, but at this point, I have nothing to contribute in the rifle category. And perhaps with my chairs in mind, folks can better help me determine what I'll need to start with for this wonderful craft of building rifles.
My ultimate goal is to build entirely by hand as our forefathers did, perhaps inline with what those fine gents are doing at Colonial Williamsburg Gunsmith Shop. I was watching their videos with great interest a few nights ago.
I not only have an interest in the final outcome itself, but I love the processes, and as I mentioned, hand tooling is a great interest in my life, I hope someday I'll be splitting out of log a plank, to drying, to shaping the stock. The barrel and locks I'll have to purchase, as I can't see myself getting into blacksmithing, but I can see creating the brass furniture and engraving! But that would be long off I feel, for now I'll have to start with a roughed stock by purchase, and buy all the metal parts just to understand what the heck is going on with these rifles.

So much to do, and see, I'm a kid in a candy store right now, I just need to settle my mind down, and with the help from you all here, I can focus and start from the beginning, and breath deeply.

Thanks sir Bill.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 02:26:25 PM by John Morris »

John Morris

  • Guest
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2020, 06:37:20 PM »
Welcome John
 Lots of good guys on this forum. While I am not a builder, I am a shooter and will most certainly assist you with that venture when you get to that stage.

Thank you completely Daryl, I think I should shoot first, I should probably know why I am building!  ;D
So I'll probably be looking you up sooner than later.
Thanks sir.

John Morris

  • Guest
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2020, 06:39:24 PM »
Hello John,we have all been green at the start of our sport and hobby so dont worry,Bills advise is something to read twice as his words are on the nail . My tip is blackpowder is highly addictive, I have been doing it and enjoying it since the late 1970s take care Steven.

Holy cow, from the late 70's, you are one of the originals here I gather. I wish I had started this earlier in life, but hey, later than never they say, so much to do, little time! Thanks Steven.

John Morris

  • Guest
Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2020, 06:40:13 PM »
When you go to your local club, find a couple of the guys and tell them you are brand new and are wanting to get into the sport.   I would bet that you will find yourself shooting their rifles and with them more then willing to help you as well.
For the most part ML shooters are the nicest.
Fleener

Based on your suggestion, we'll do just that, thanks Fleener, appreciate the tip greatly.