Author Topic: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition  (Read 6532 times)

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2020, 06:41:10 PM »
Welcome sir, and thank you for your service. I'm new too and have been having a blast trying to learn about this stuff. These folks here are a wealth of knowledge and have been very willing to help.

Awesome, I have a newbie to suffer with! Thanks Todd, appreciate the welcome.

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2020, 06:45:58 PM »
Oh, great....a decent guy...there goes the neighborhood....

Welcome aboard. For the first year we'll all be asking you to clean our guns.  Then we start laughing at your mistakes, criticizing your posts and so on.
JUST KIDDING
Make sure you kiss your M-1 goodbye when you trade it in for that kit you absolutely have to have.

I would expect nothing less as a newbie! In my day job, the FNG pays dearly for coming into our midst!
That M-1, all original bring back from Korea, was pawned when my wife and I were newlyweds almost thirty years ago, it was the only thing I owned of value after coming home from ARMY in 1991, we were on our own, short on rent for our little apartment, and I pawned it, never got it back, but thanks to it, we stayed off the streets and kept our apartment. It hurt, but it would of hurt more if I didn't.
Thanks for the welcome Capgun!

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2020, 06:49:02 PM »
John,

As the others have said, welcome to the forum.   I have to disagree with those that recommend starting with a percussion gun is the best way to go.  There is nothing hard to learn or mystical about a flintlock firearm.  If you buy a gun with a quality lock, it should spark well and most of your possible problems are eliminated.  Once most people shoot a flintlock they're hooked and become one of the "Spark Side of the Force".  I suggest you invest $30 in Eric Bye's book https://www.nmlra.org/store/flintlocks-a-practical-guide-for-their-use-and-appreciation.  It is a great book for someone that is starting out in flintlocks and muzzleloading in general. 

Mole Eyes

Because of your suggestion Mole Eyes, I am a Flintlock fan now, researching and becoming a tad less ignorant on the subject, thanks! I also purchased Eric Byes book, thanks!

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2020, 06:55:13 PM »
I'm not glancing twice at 400-dollar kit.  It's around $800 for a pile of parts to make a simple gun with better components: A swamped/shaped barrel being around 250, maybe 200 on wood, 200 for a lock (flint), then the balance of the furniture and all.  I would look very sidewise at any kit for less.  Even some "good" kits come with inappropriate parts (can be subbed out if you know what to ask for).

Some folks start with a plank-and avoid lots of troubles from the "typical" pre-carved kit.  If you do choose a kit, and it's not a Kibler, then have the company OMIT the lock inlet.  This might well save some headaches.  The Kibler kit will have all inlets where they should be, they are made to a different standard. Jim has carved his own niche.  ;)

Your best bargain might be a well-made contemporary gun found on the second-hand market. Assuming you find one in a style that suits you and a pull that fits.  They come up from time to time.

Welcome to the forum.  Although we have plenty of differences of opinions here, you'll find that we've dispensed with much of the hooey and hogwash that generally floats around with regard to blackpowder shooting.  We don't discuss cartridge guns here at all, though I don't think anyone will be put off by your introductory remarks, also we don't talk about production guns much- but you'll find some for sale in the classifieds from time to time.  We try to keep all things historically-based rather than simply propellant-oriented (as you may find elsewhere). We study the antiques and replicate them and most all the things surrounding them. Enjoy.

Also you might check out Bob McBride's channel on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXoSu_qXB7Ntcaw4OgKqA1g

I too know which end of a data collector to mash on and how to find a lost pins buried in three layers of fencing and such.  I've done a lot of stuff. 

Finally, I'd not limit myself to percussion guns-they are later and only occupy a very small window of time. Flintlocks occupy a longer span of history and tend to always be more interesting and most fun.

Wade, thanks for all of that, and mostly thank you for steering me away from possible pitfalls in the kits, based on your advice and that of Bill, I feel like I'd like to start from a rough blank for the stock, and purchase parts separately, just for that I'll need a ton of help from you guys to determine what the heck parts I should buy and which ones go together correctly.

So you were a surveyor too eh? Very cool! I am in the transportation end of it, building bridges and roads and dabbling in public lands surveys when the opportunity arises for us. But mainly I am building bridges and large interchange projects for our road systems, I have 6 years to go for retirement, I am ready.  ;D

Thank you Wade

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2020, 06:57:20 PM »
Welcome from a Army vet, and thanks to you and yours for your service.
There’s two paths that you have to follow now and both can be done in parallel. Shooting muzzle loaders and building them. To get started in the shooting I would recommend a Thomson Center percussion. Your dollar limit will buy the rifle and perhaps most of the things needed to run it. A kit at that price could be problematic. I’ve assembled a few of different makes and quality and each had their issues. At this time I’m working with a Kibler kit. This route has been a very different experience! If you ever want to build a rifle that will be a treat to work with and finish as a firearm that will have you just sitting with it on your lap to admire, this is it.
Good luck on your journey.

Thank you JPK, appreciate your advice greatly. I had thought of purchasing a fully functional rifle first, learn to shoot it, then build, it seems like the rational way to do it, I should probably understand what and why I am building by shooting first, then building.
Thanks!

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2020, 07:00:23 PM »
John, this squid can forgive you being a mud soldier.
You are entering a new and strange world, which is also a ton of fun.  Most fellows - and ladies - are eager to help a newcomer to learn the ropes.
Having been a wetlands and wildlife biologist, I have spent a lot of time with a big Garmin rig on my back, getting all the WP around big and little wetlands, thrashing through the underbrush.  Actually, mostly moving slow and quiet - I have walked up on foxes, coyotes, and bobcats galore, plus a black bear or two.  And in South America, coming much closer to an Onca - Jaguar - than was comfortable.  Be careful in the bushes!
I think that once you get the smell of black powder in your nose, you will be hooked for sure.

Craig, what an interesting career you have/had. It must of been very rewarding, yet a little stressful at time too? A Jaguar? Sheesh! That would warrant of change of underwear.
Hey Craig, being a squid, you're supposed to be slamming the Marines, not us!  ;D Thanks for the warm welcome, and thank you for your service.

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2020, 07:02:07 PM »
  Welcome John an your family too...You have received good advice already. The couple things I would suggest is to get to a couple of firearm shows pertaining to historic Muzzeloader s.
Handle as many as you can to see what you prefer. Building from scratch is a challenge. But in my opinion you will end up with much more appreciation for your accomplishment.
When an if you get ready to order your parts for the build. Come hear an ask questions about what parts are correct for the particular rife or school you want to build. It will save you money and headaches...  Enjoy...Oldtravler

Traveler, thanks much for that, I had not thought of attending a show for muzzleloaders, that is an excellent idea, I appreciate that spark.
You can bet I'll be here asking a ton of questions, to the point of bothersome I am sure.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 07:11:00 PM by John Morris »

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2020, 07:03:59 PM »
Semper Fi and Welcome.

You’ve gotten great advise so far so I’ll abstain. No question, no matter how basic, will be met with anything but thoughtful, well explained answers here. That’s what makes this forum so invaluable to all of us. Stick around.

I'll stick around for sure Bob, appreciate the welcome, and a Hooah back!

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2020, 07:05:49 PM »
Great to have you onboard sir.  I would echo the sentiments of those saying to find a group or someone near you who already knows how to shoot muzzleloaders.  It'll save you time and aggravation. 

My advice would be to put your money into a firearms with an excellent barrel and an excellent lock.  Those are the heart and soul of a muzzleloader, and scrimping on either will leave you deeply frustrated. 

I would highly suggest getting a barrel with square bottom rifling, not round, as square is much easier to get shooting well.  The exception in my opinion being Colerain round bottom rifling, which is really good stuff.  Colerain, Green Mountain, Rice and others make good barrels. I shy away from no-name barrels.  You just never know.....

I hope this helps.  God Bless,  Marc

Thank you Marc, everything you stated helped immensely, you gave me some name brands to search out, and their websites are full of great information as well with charts on barrel types and more, I learned alot from that.
Thanks Marc

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2020, 07:07:54 PM »
John,

Welcome from another relatively new guy. In addition to all the great advice so far, I'd add that if you can swing it, find one of the gun building classes. I took one 3 years ago and drug my then 72 year old dad with me. Time spent hands on with a pro is a real help. Time spent with my pop, learning this together, has been invaluable. He's ready to start his third build!

Regards,

Paul

Paul, thanks so much, what a neat story, with your dad and all. My dad is a woodworker, and I bet he'd love to see one built and perhaps participate as well, he's 86 but don't look a year past 70. He's got plenty of life in him and he's always open to new ways to indulge his woodworking appetite.
Thanks Paul

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2020, 07:08:53 PM »
John, welcome. As others have said, I hope you enjoy this art as much as we do. This site is one of the most valuable tools you can have on your journey. Use and enjoy it.
Bob

Thanks for the welcome Bob, I'll most certainly use it, many of my questions have been answered already, just by searching topics, appreciate it much Bob!

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2020, 09:25:59 PM »
John said:  "Craig, what an interesting career you have/had. It must of been very rewarding, yet a little stressful at time too? A Jaguar? Sheesh! That would warrant of change of underwear.
Hey Craig, being a squid, you're supposed to be slamming the Marines, not us!   Thanks for the warm welcome, and thank you for your service."

I could never slam the jarheads - they are the folks that taught me to shoot at age 11-12, when my Dad was stationed in the Philippines!  Everything from the .38 revolver to the 135 mm field artillery piece.  Army guys gave me a ton of shoulder patches from Korea, and taught me to stay away from walking through stuff - take a ship or plane instead.  I was in a squadron (VA-95) that provided a lot of close air support over in SE Asia in '66 - I did learn a lot about fixing and building aircraft.

Back to the subject - If you join NMLRA, you will get a monthly mag "Muzzle Blasts".  Lots of good stuff there, plus a couple pages of where and when monthly shoots are held.  And lots of articles about building, maintaining, and using our beloved muzzle loading art pieces. Good source of info!

Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2020, 09:30:20 PM »
Craig, thank you again for your service, and "Welcome Home".

Hey, I did join NMLRA a few weeks ago, and I have received an issue of Muzzle Blasts already, I think I have read it three times.  ;D

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2020, 09:48:08 PM »
... A Jaguar? Sheesh! That would warrant of change of underwear.
...

never get out of the boat.   ;D
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Offline Bob McBride

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2020, 10:37:41 PM »
John,
Glad to have you with us.  Early on I looked at other sites, and this one is by far the best.  There are a lot of talented builders here that cover a large number of different type of rifles and are always ready to help with any questions you have.  Take care, and thanks for your service.  There are a lot of vets in this group as well.
                                                                                   Roger Sells

Thank you Roger! It's all very overwhelming right now, the more I research and more I learn there are as many styles and features in these longrifles as there are people in our country it seems. I need to settle down, and just focus on the beginnings, and not where I want to be in this craft.

If your a researcher thats fabulous. Make research your priority and when you pull the trigger it won’t be a bad choice. It may not be the one you will make 5 years from now but it will ions better than the one you would make if you pulled the trigger before your research. That’s my imput.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2020, 02:45:55 AM »
"Never get out of the boat" - Love it, Wade!  It was mostly a land walk, just had to cross a couple streams.  I came around a dense clump of thorn bushes, and there he was!  About 10' away.  I just froze in that spot, don't even know if I kept breathing or not.  He looked like he might double my weight, definitely in the 400 lb class.  After a lifetime or two, he just turned and walked away.  The rest of that survey, I whistled or sang to let the critters know I was coming.  I had a 1911 on my hip, but he would have eaten me before I could pull it out.
Always wanted a tattoo of a Jaguar peering around a clump of brush, never did get it.  And my hide has gotten very thin as it has aged, not good for the ink pen.

John, you've had a ton of great advice here in this one topic, so I will give you just a bit more:  Read a lot of he back pages here in "Building", and also in the Tutorial section.  And Mike Brooks has a heck of a good tutorial right on the opening page of ALR - Building.  he covers about everything you need to know for building your first longrifle.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2020, 02:51:41 AM »
As for getting all the right parts, I recommend digging through the museum here and the antique collecting section to learn of the various styles. Some you may find more to your liking than others. Also many times there's an earlier and later division of schools.

Once you get an idea of some styles/schools you prefer, then you can learn how available proper bits and pieces are for each. Of course the most commonly sought stuff will be more available and economical-with multiple vendors. And some builds require a lot of work/sourcing to get proper parts-not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's usually a thing for an advanced builder and/or the desires of someone deep into the culture needing that "special" piece.

Some schools include more fancy work and are thereby less beginner friendly.

Caliber and  architecture are involved as well. So mind that if you're set on or "need" a particular caliber for hunting. I really pushed that envelope, and my mentor frowned but let me do it. Today I would frown just the sane as he did then. But that "my" school has lots of rules breaking in it, so it's not completely off base.

Fancying one up (carving, inlays, engraving) can be outsourced if that the type you must have. Expect to pay by the hour and wait your turn for best results. Also, letting in the barrel (bbl) is often outsourced by makers both amateur and professional. For a swamped bbl, probably a great idea for your first-if that's what your build calls for.

===

I was on a two-man crew in a three-man company. Mostly rural and suburban work. All mountain sides or swamps and sewers it seemed. City work was worrisome with the noise and traffic hazards. I don't miss outdoor work. Three of ten days were perfect, other seven were frigid or boiling. Learned a lot.

edit: Our closest encounter was when my partner unknowingly stepped OVER the biggest timber rattler I've ever been that close to (could have had a possum or cat in it's belly-fat and coiled looking not unlike a spare tire on the ground).  We were in chest deep grass and I saw it as soon as he walked over it-and shouted at him, he turned to look and freaked a little. I made a different exit and went back for another pic--and it was gone and vamoose we did (shaken for the day). Finished that job in following weeks wearing sidearms and bite guards, there were other rattlers on it too.  He walked past so many snakes-it's a wonder one never tagged him.  Worked a hillside job where a panther was reported to be roaming.  Saw no trace or sign.

===

Back to the original subject, you can also use the popular kit suppliers catalogs to get an idea of what particular genericified types of longrifles/smoothies look like BUT- only let that steer you into better study of those originals they "descended from". We don't want to copy a copy without knowing what "compromises" if any were made in the design. It's too easy to miss nuances and details that way.  If you have a particular interest in a historic event or person, that might steer your schools selection (older guns were always present in later periods-but later guns don't quite fit back into earlier periods). This means more to some folks than others.  Experts will disagree too, so be ready for that. It's often good to look at both sides of any argument.

Final: Others might well tell you to just grab a stick of wood and put a barrel in and make up whatever you think looks good. Any first gun has plenty of mistakes and errors, but if the architecture is good and parts are right, from study and understanding, (as can easily be accomplished here with research and inquiry) you'll likely be much happier with it further down the road (than with a hodge-podge frankengun).  You don't have to bench copy a piece, but you also likely don't want to put a nose where and ear goes.  ;D   Best of luck and studies.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 04:54:34 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Nordnecker

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2020, 02:17:15 PM »
John, you certainly have come on board in a grand way. Welcome. Nice to see pictures of your chairs. One thing about building these rifles that is vastly different from building most things out of wood is- you are doing ALL of the work with one piece of wood. Unlike many projects where you can remake a piece if you mess something up, with a gun stock, it's the only piece you've got.
 
Many things can be practiced or tried before committing to a final build. You can inlet a piece of pipe into some scrap wood. You can set up a station on your workbench to accomodate a gunstock. You could buy a lock and practice inletting it. Try your hand at cutting out a patch box or side plate. I hope you like filing.

I hope you enjoy the hobby and soon you'll be dazzling us with your work.
"I can no longer stand back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids."- Gen Jack T. Ripper

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2020, 08:35:21 PM »
That's often a big often unsung advantage of plank building--you have plenty of scrap from that board to fix all the errors you make--it will blend right in.  No two trees take stains/finishing exactly the same.
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2020, 10:52:10 PM »
That's often a big often unsung advantage of plank building--you have plenty of scrap from that board to fix all the errors you make--it will blend right in.  No two trees take stains/finishing exactly the same.

These 2 Hawken rifles were stained exactly the same method and solution.




Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2020, 04:34:12 AM »
If your a researcher thats fabulous. Make research your priority and when you pull the trigger it won’t be a bad choice. It may not be the one you will make 5 years from now but it will ions better than the one you would make if you pulled the trigger before your research. That’s my imput.

Thank you Bob.

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2020, 04:37:07 AM »
John, you've had a ton of great advice here in this one topic, so I will give you just a bit more:  Read a lot of he back pages here in "Building", and also in the Tutorial section.  And Mike Brooks has a heck of a good tutorial right on the opening page of ALR - Building.  he covers about everything you need to know for building your first longrifle.

Thank you, very much Craig! I have  been reading the front page ALR how to build a gun, it's wonderful reading!

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2020, 04:39:57 AM »
You don't have to bench copy a piece, but you also likely don't want to put a nose where and ear goes.  ;D   Best of luck and studies.

Thank you Wade for the entire reply you did here, and this is what I want to avoid, putting a nose where an ear goes, I have already learned a ton of information here just by reading our forums here, and the front page of ALR for building a gun. Thanks again Wade.

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2020, 04:52:52 AM »
John, you certainly have come on board in a grand way. Welcome. Nice to see pictures of your chairs. One thing about building these rifles that is vastly different from building most things out of wood is- you are doing ALL of the work with one piece of wood. Unlike many projects where you can remake a piece if you mess something up, with a gun stock, it's the only piece you've got.
 
Many things can be practiced or tried before committing to a final build. You can inlet a piece of pipe into some scrap wood. You can set up a station on your workbench to accomodate a gunstock. You could buy a lock and practice inletting it. Try your hand at cutting out a patch box or side plate. I hope you like filing.

I hope you enjoy the hobby and soon you'll be dazzling us with your work.

Oh boy Nordnecker, I did not mean to make a grand entrance, it was not my intent. What I did intend to do however, is to come in with my family and let you all know who I am, I am just accustomed to being an open book on a forum, I am the owner of www.thepatriotwoodworker.com, and there I am a huge open book! So that kind of carried over to here.  :)

There are only two forums I visit now, my own forum, and AmericanLongRifles. I don't have much time to visit other forums, as I am typically maintaining my own, and interacting with all the wonderfully awesome people there. And now, I am here too, and I am completely happy I get to share my "Newbie" journey with you guys, and to learn from you guys. I'll be sharing my journey on both sites.

Weeks ago I found AmericanLongRifle and I linked it within my own community at https://thepatriotwoodworker.com/links/link/274-american-longrifles/, hoping perhaps I can stir interest into our woodworkers there to try out something different such as building a piece of our American History, the long rifle.

You are very correct, building a chair, I can bust a spindle, make a mistake, or tear up a back rest, and I can replace them with another piece of wood, easily, but with these rifles, holy cow, one slip and it can be the difference with a great looking rifle or just a whatever rifle, or worse I would imagine, the total and complete destruction of a blank and it becomes firewood.

I so appreciate all the replies I have gotten here, this is really awesome, I knew I found the right place. Thanks again!

John Morris

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Re: Completely New to the Craft and the Sport/Tradition
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2020, 05:40:22 AM »
That's often a big often unsung advantage of plank building--you have plenty of scrap from that board to fix all the errors you make--it will blend right in.  No two trees take stains/finishing exactly the same.

These 2 Hawken rifles were stained exactly the same method and solution.





Oh my goodness, beeeeeautiful!!!!!!!!!!!