Wheeler & Son Northwest trade gun

[Buck]

Jim - Louie - Bill,

Great guns - thanks for sharing.

Buck

[Majorjoel]

I've been really enjoying this thread!  Many thanks to all for posting these nice pictures and info.

Have had an interest in NW Trade guns for some years and just from studying these pictures, many questions I have had are answered!     

Nicely inletted dragon sideplates!   

I have NW sideplate that was found by a school teacher who was doing some metal detecting with her class several years ago in an early settlement near Northport Michigan.    The scales and much of the serpents form look a lot like the plate from Louis example.   

[louieparker]

Steve and JDM thanks for the information.....LP

[jdm]

Louie , Jim Gordon  has one very similar to yours he dates around 1808- 1812.

Hudnut, Do you have any more pictures of yours? I would love to see them .

[louieparker]

JDM Hansons book The Northwest Gun calls it a model 1790...I don't have a clue...LP

[Hudnut]

jdm - I'll take some.

[wabeek]

"The Art of the English Trade Gun in North America" by Nathan E. Bender, I think a 2018 publication, paperback, can't remember the price but wasn't a deal breaker.  A good addition to your library if you have any interest in these or not!

[louieparker]

JDM I went back to Hanson's book and did a bit of checking to see how he identified these as a 1790 model. He says the trigger guards with the long finials that taper to a point are 1790..Shows a photo on this same guard..  I will try to post a photo later today.  Could you see the guard on  Jim''s gun ?......LP

[louieparker]

I got a call from a good friend about this thread...He has the new Hanson book.  Unless I misread the old information which is certainly possible, new information has been found that contradicts the old.  So I am just more than a little bit confused and have no idea what I am talking about....Sorry about that.... LP

[jdm]

Louie
I'm guessing the model 1790 came from Wheeler taking over the contracts in the 1790's . I misspoke  on the date of the one in Jim Gordon's collection He thinks it dates from 1798 -1805.   No picture of the bottom of the guard.

[wabeek]

Question re dating British flint trade gun view & proof marks : 1) downward facing broad arrow surmounted by GR, surmounted by crown and  2)  closer to breech, crossed sceptres surmounted by crown....pre 1813?  Your thoughts & comments, please.

[HURON]

Hello...I am new to the forum and wanted to see if you guys could check your reference books regarding this WHEELER & SON NORTH WEST TRADE GUN...I am curious to know the date that it was made...I am guessing between 1813 and 1821?  Also does your books state that these were traded and used by the Natives or just fur traders?  There are no military markings on it..I am looking for an example that would have been used by the Natives in the War of 1812 and unsure if this one would fit my goal.  I should mention it has a 37 inch barrel.

[Steve Collward]

Huron,
   Welcome to the ALR Forum.  Very nice example of an early 19th century trade gun.
 In Ryan Gale's book "For Trade and Treaty", there is a Wheeler & Son marked trade gun, pages 73-78 very similar in style as yours. Gale dates this example ca. 1814-1819, so you are pretty close with your assessment of dates.
    Thanks for posting.

[HURON]

I understand that Natives preferred a serpent side plate...I also understand Wheeler used old military hardware when making these....so I am unsure about the use of these by indians...have you read any accounts of them using this style?

[Robert Wolfe]

Encyclopedia of Trade Goods (Hanson and Harmon 2011) has a similar trade gun on page 231. Shares the same  style sideplate, round barrel,  and buttplate. But, lock is a little different and it does not have a rear sight like yours does. They say "The last flintlock model of British common gun for Indians, made by Robert Wheeler & Sons in the 1820s-30s. It has military style butt plate, side plate, butt stock, and a round barrel. The only North West gun features are the lock, binding strip at the muzzle, ramrod guides, and trigger guard. It has a 36 inch barrel, .65 caliber, and weighs 6 pounds."

[HURON]

Can anyone tell me how long Wheeler and Son had a contract with the Northwest Trading company/HBC or even if he continued it after HBC took over in 1821 and did the North West Trading Company continue to use their logo after 1821 when HBC bought them out?

[HURON]

Thanks Robert..if anyone else has information regarding this style of trade musket please add what you know...as Robert has mentioned they are saying this musket dates to around 1820-1830...I feel like it dates earlier than this...1813/14 to 1821...any input would be greatly appreciated...I have no books as of yet and will be buying some..but in the mean time I'm hoping some of you guys with the library or knowledge could add to this discussion.