Lock assembly

[jmforge]

Who are the go to guys on here for heat treating and assembling locks for a castings set?

[Jim Chambers]

If you have a Siler lock kit we can certainly do the assembly, etc. for you.  If, however, it is a parts set from The Rifle Shoppe good luck finding anyone willing to tackle it.

[jmforge]

If you have a Siler lock kit we can certainly do the assembly, etc. for you.  If, however, it is a parts set from The Rifle Shoppe good luck finding anyone willing to tackle it.

Actually Jim. the locks that I was looking at are the Blackley Whitworth percussion "bar" lock and the Alexander Henry back action lock. They are the only ones that I have seen that have the stalking safety.  Do you think it would be easier to retrofit a safety to something like a Davis Alexander Henry lock?  I have rudimentary machining skills (cutting slots in knife guards, etc) and I have a POS harbor Freight mill/drill and will be picking up a Taig micro mill later this month.  Needless to say, i also have tool and mild steel of various and sundry types coming out of my ears.  My only issue is that in the knife biz the way I do it, you mostly just jam everything into the KMG belt grinder until you get it close and then finish it up with jewelers files, EDM stones and sandpaper.  Not a whole lot of precision machining involved unless you are making modern folders.

[jerrywh]

converting a lock to a lsiding safty is a major job. everything in the internals has to be changed except the mainspring.

[jmforge]

converting a lock to a lsiding safty is a major job. everything in the internals has to be changed except the mainspring.

I was under the impression that the old stalking safety was totally external and engaged a notch on the hammer at half cock.

[Dphariss]

converting a lock to a lsiding safty is a major job. everything in the internals has to be changed except the mainspring.

I was under the impression that the old stalking safety was totally external and engaged a notch on the hammer at half cock.

Depends on the lock maker.
Some slid into a groove in the cock, some engaged the tumbler internally, some apparently the shaft of the tumbler.

The safety equipped lock I have is made from castings of a Manton lock and it engages the tumber infront of the sear spring. The spring that keeps the safety in "safe" or "fire" is in the V of the sear spring and the saftey fits inside the spring as well with the safety spring serving as a cover to hide the parts. All safety parts should be hardened and then tempered to spring hardness.
The best way to figure this out is to buy a set of castings for a lock with a safety. Something English IMO.
If the sear and sear spring screws are spaced right and the tumber has metal in the right place there is no need to change parts or make them. Just cut the plate, make the safety to fit and notch the tumbler.
If the parts are too close together, I was going to put one on the L&R Manton I have on a pistol but the parts are just too close together and I gave up.
Someone has to have some photos of locks or parts. I don't, at least at the moment.
Dan

[smart dog]

Hi jmforge,
I cannot tell from the photos how the Whitworth safety operates.  It may just engage the hammer.  The other safety bolted locks described by Jerry and Dan have a slide behind the cock that connects to a sliding bolt that engages the tumbler on the inside of the plate.  It is a simple mechanism but it requires precise fitting, particularly the sear spring.  Anyway, Blackley's locks are made from mild steel except for the springs.  The parts require case hardening.  The mild steel is a joy to work with compared to the @!*% tough stuff that the Rifle Shoppe uses but you have to add carbon to harden it.  The quality of the Blackley's castings and their detail are outstanding,

dave

[jmforge]

From the pictures, it appears that the only place that the slot that the safety rides in on the Blackley locks go all the way through the plate is where there aren't any internal components other than the mainspring.  I'm guessing that they engage the hammer.
As for tha hrd parts from Rifle Shoppe, if you have to heat treat the stuff eventually, you should anneal it before trying to file it.

[smart dog]

Hi jmforge,
If you have worked with Rifle Shoppe parts, you will find that Blackley's casting are a joy to work with.  I have built 8 locks from TRS sets of castings and annealed every set in my heat treating oven before working.  Let me repeat, compared to TRS parts, Blackley's are a joy to work.

dave

[jmforge]

Hi jmforge,
If you have worked with Rifle Shoppe parts, you will find that Blackley's casting are a joy to work with.  I have built 8 locks from TRS sets of castings and annealed every set in my heat treating oven before working.  Let me repeat, compared to TRS parts, Blackley's are a joy to work.

dave

Cool.  But when you said they were made of mild steel, that got my knifemaker OCD thingie going and i was immediiately looking all over the web for info on the pro's and cons of case hardening versus super quenching 1018...lol.

[LRB]

  Joe, I don't care how you "super-quench" 1018, it ain't gunna be hard enough. You really are going to need to pack harden if It's 1018. At the very least Kasenit the devil out of it.

[J.D.]

Wick is right about superquench. It's great to toughen impact tools, but it isn't a hardening quench, as it pertains to  wear resistance.

I know someone who can assemble the lock for you. He is listed in the TRS catalog as a lock assembler, but his contact information is no longer current.

I can contact him to see if he can do it, if you are interested.

God bless

[jmforge]

I know that at least of couple of wise guys have actually passed the ABS Journeyman Smith performance test using superquenched 1018 blades.  That is seen by some as maybe legal cheating, but if they were forged and they performed as required, then they pass.   I guess were resistance is relative.  I don't really think of any steel that doesn't have some kind of carbide former and hardened to at least the mid %0's Rc as being truly wear resistant.   The weird thing about ML'ers is that a lot of the barrels seem to be made out of non-hardenable steels and I would think that you would have some serious wear problems there.

[smart dog]

Hi jmforge,
I guess a lot depends on what you want to do with the lock.  If you are trying to build a nice Henry or Whitworth rifle, a color case-hardened lock would look the most appropriate.  Those old pack hardened locks lasted a long time with hard useage. 

dave

[J.D.]

jmforge,

I hope that you are aware that most cast lock parts are cast of medium to high carbon  steel. Quench those parts in superquench and you will most likely have very small shards of those parts in the bottom of the quench tub.

IMHO, even parts cast of "mild steel" can sometimes have a carbon content of 3-4 points of carbon. IMHO, parts made of steel with that much carbon may crack in the quench.

Follow the instructions contained with the "kit" or parts set. The manufacturers know how to best heat treat their parts.

God bless

[jmforge]

jmforge,

I hope that you are aware that most cast lock parts are cast of medium to high carbon  steel. Quench those parts in superquench and you will most likely have very small shards of those parts in the bottom of the quench tub.

IMHO, even parts cast of "mild steel" can sometimes have a carbon content of 3-4 points of carbon. IMHO, parts made of steel with that much carbon may crack in the quench.

Follow the instructions contained with the "kit" or parts set. The manufacturers know how to best heat treat their parts.

God bless

I would prefer something with higher carbon content.  I am set up for that.  I have both medium and super fast quench oils and a 21 inch heat treat oven and could even go so far as to heat treat individual parts differently depending on their use.  Knowns are always better.  As for the safety, TOTW has plans for a very early Purdey percusion type rifle that has the safety in the old pre 1840 rear location.  They say that the plans show how to make the mods to the lock, but I can't figure out how you would fit it.  Both the L&R English lock and the Davis Alex Henry have bolts and pins inconveniently located on the rear of the lock plate.  I will probably just order the plans and see what they say.  $5.50 isn't going to kill me and if they have already done all of the heavy lifting as far a design, that is mo' betta fo' me.