Author Topic: J&S Hawken stocks  (Read 16433 times)

tiger955

  • Guest
J&S Hawken stocks
« on: July 31, 2009, 03:22:47 AM »
Hi all, I'm new here but not to muzzleloaders.
I am going to build a full stock mountain rifle and want it to be as close to an original Hawken as possible. Does any one know for sure what kind of wood the Hawken bros. built their stocks out of in St Louis?
I veiwed a dozen originals at the Cody museum last fall and all had very dark stocks, but as they were in a glass case I could not handle them. I was thinking of using walnut, but wonder if perhaps theirs are maple and just stained dark or darkened from age. I do remember the wood appeared to have a rather coarse grain on several of them. Is there any other kind of wood that was popular for stocks in that time and place?

Offline Roger B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1644
  • You wouldn't have a snack, would you?
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 03:30:04 AM »
Maple or walnut, but perhaps more frequently maple.  If you really want an authentic Hawken plains rifle, head over to Don Stith at his site the St. Louis Plains Rifle Company.  Don knows as much or more about Hawken rifles than anyone I can think of.  The rifles in the Cody Museum are dark because they are oxidized with many years of life/grime.
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 06:43:08 AM »
James D. Gordon in his book "Great Gunmakers fpr the Early West, Volume III- Western U.S."  has photos of five fullstock Hawkens.  Four are maple and one is almost black but probably is maple.  Gordon wrote "Stocks:  Typically maple or walnut, with at least 9 of 10 being half stocked with double retainer keys, beaver tail cheek piece, and a recessed rod entry.  A very few have pistol grips.  Full stocks usually have Tennessee or straight cheek pieces."  All five of these do.  Other woods were used back then, such as cherry, but I've not read about any Hawkens except in maple or walnut.  Are you doing percussion or flint, and what caliber?
Herb

Offline John Archer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 06:45:40 AM »
James D. Gordon in his book "Great Gunmakers fpr the Early West, Volume III- Western U.S."  has photos of five fullstock Hawkens.  Four are maple and one is almost black but probably is maple.  Gordon wrote "Stocks:  Typically maple or walnut, with at least 9 of 10 being half stocked with double retainer keys, beaver tail cheek piece, and a recessed rod entry.  A very few have pistol grips.  Full stocks usually have Tennessee or straight cheek pieces."  All five of these do.  Other woods were used back then, such as cherry, but I've not read about any Hawkens except in maple or walnut.  Are you doing percussion or flint, and what caliber?

A great set of 3 books...well worth the money he asks for them.

John.
I cannot be left unsupervised.
(Sent from my immobile dial-operated telephone)

California Kid

  • Guest
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2009, 08:10:28 AM »
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 08:11:04 AM by California Kid »

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2009, 08:30:07 AM »
Hi all, I'm new here but not to muzzleloaders.
I am going to build a full stock mountain rifle and want it to be as close to an original Hawken as possible. Does any one know for sure what kind of wood the Hawken bros. built their stocks out of in St Louis?
I veiwed a dozen originals at the Cody museum last fall and all had very dark stocks, but as they were in a glass case I could not handle them. I was thinking of using walnut, but wonder if perhaps theirs are maple and just stained dark or darkened from age. I do remember the wood appeared to have a rather coarse grain on several of them. Is there any other kind of wood that was popular for stocks in that time and place?

Hard maple is the best choice. I think most originals were stocked in maple because its stronger.
If I were to make a FS Hawken I would go for the second FS in Bairds book, its also shown with a HS rifle earlier in the book.
The Bridger HS in Helena has a dark varnish applied.


If I were to make another FS Hawken the stock would look a lot like this one.

Which is based on this rifle.



Which  is based on a FS original Don King had access to in the 1970s.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

tiger955

  • Guest
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2009, 11:02:36 AM »
thanks so much for the advice guys.... I will probably go with maple, will do more research... I prefer flinters but most likely will build this one in percussion somewhere around 54 cal.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2009, 05:05:00 AM »
54 is the ideal caliber. Bigger and recoil can get to be an issue.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline stoneke

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
Re: J&S Hawken stocks - pictures attached
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2009, 09:39:35 PM »
Here are two 54 cal Hawken rifles that I built with different woods. The flint full stock is built with a quarter sawed piece of walnut. The percussion is built from a premium piece of maple. The flint is my favorite hunting rifle and very accurate with both r/b and Lyman 310 gr Real bullets. Thanks to John Getz for a great shallow bottom barrel. The percussion has a H&H, that is also wonderfully accurate.



Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2009, 09:59:59 PM »
Excellent thread!  Over the past year, I've rekindled my interest in Hawken rifles, and have accumulated the parts to build another one.  All of the rifles displayed here are most worthy.  Thanks for posting them.

Of the observations I've made regarding the originals, one of the most profound is the fact that the lock panels are not sharp like an English rifle/gun, but softly rounded...just like the first one that Dan posted.  The lock treatment of the rifles by Stonke is superlative.  Apparently, barrels on originals were charcoal blued, and all the furniture was case hardened, usually just grey.

If there's one aspect that is deficient on repro rifles, it's the butt plate.  Finding one that is correct is difficult as most of the castings have something that is wonkey.  Don Stith sells good ones, and a few of those from TOW and MBS too are good.  Watch out for those with long toes and short heels, that give the rifle the wrong pitch.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline John Archer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 02:30:34 AM »


Taylor is right on...Don Stith for correct parts especially butt plates. If you want to build a true copy of an original, you'll have to buy from Don or make your own. For the Hawkens I want to build, there are no butt plates available from the regular suppliers. This butt plate is forged in two pieces and joined with a rivet and brazed. It's for a Modena Hawken which is pretty large as far as Hawkens go.

John
I cannot be left unsupervised.
(Sent from my immobile dial-operated telephone)

Offline Dan'l 1946

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 628
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2009, 03:40:58 AM »
Hi all, I'm new here but not to muzzleloaders.
I am going to build a full stock mountain rifle and want it to be as close to an original Hawken as possible. Does any one know for sure what kind of wood the Hawken bros. built their stocks out of in St Louis?
I veiwed a dozen originals at the Cody museum last fall and all had very dark stocks, but as they were in a glass case I could not handle them. I was thinking of using walnut, but wonder if perhaps theirs are maple and just stained dark or darkened from age. I do remember the wood appeared to have a rather coarse grain on several of them. Is there any other kind of wood that was popular for stocks in that time and place?

Hard maple is the best choice. I think most originals were stocked in maple because its stronger.
If I were to make a FS Hawken I would go for the second FS in Bairds book, its also shown with a HS rifle earlier in the book.
The Bridger HS in Helena has a dark varnish applied.


If I were to make another FS Hawken the stock would look a lot like this one.

Which is based on this rifle.



Which  is based on a FS original Don King had access to in the 1970s.
Dan
  Dan, what lock is that in the bottom photo? Dan

tiger955

  • Guest
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2009, 04:16:51 AM »
those are some beautiful rifles, I pray mine turns out half as nice
Thanks again for the advice

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2009, 06:51:08 AM »
John, that's a great butt plate, and a dead ringer for Don's J & S Hawken plate, plus the added authenticity of the construction.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2009, 11:57:15 AM »
Quote
Apparently, barrels on originals were charcoal blued, and all the furniture was case hardened, usually just grey.
Actually they were more likely rust blued rather than charcoal blued and that's how Don in fact finishes his. He did state here at one time charcoal blued, but in later discussions with him he says that rust bluing is more likely based on factors such as time period (charcoal bluing just wasn't used much during the tenure of the Brothers Hawken) and color is closely matched by rust bluing.
In fact here's a quote from Don -
Quote
The few Hawkens in good enough condition to see original barrel finish are blued. The blue is fairly dark. I like the color I get by doing a satin slow rust brown, followed by boiling the barrel in water to duplicate the color. When doing the rust blue, don't overpolish or you get too bright a color. It is not the deep translucent blue seen on European guns. The rib and thimbles were also blued.
The breech and tang were case hardened as well as the lock, butt plate, trigger guard, trigger bar,entry thimble and nose cap. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing.
Also on half stocks the rib and thimbles are blued along with the barrel and that would be tough to do with charcoal blue. I've not looked at near as many originals as Don but FWIW those I have that retain some of their finish look more like rust blue than charcoal to my admittedly less educated eye.
As noted the rest of the fittings including: locks, breech plugs - patent or straight, butt plates, trigger guards, etc. are all case hardened in a gray finish - similar to what you get with Kasenit......Of course over time color case fades and can leave a similar gray finish.

For those folks interested in Hawkens who haven't perused the Buffalo Bill Historical site I recommend it highly -
here's the link to the search by maker list.
http://www.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/filter_CFM_byMade.cfm?museum=CFM&filter=byMade
- scroll down the list for the various Hawkens listed - for some strange reason they list them by first name so look for:
J & S Hawken
J. P. Gemmer
Jacob and Samuel Samuel  Hawken
Samuel Hawken
W. S. Hawken
Once you get to the thumbnails of each individual rifle you can zoom in on the various images to better see the detail
One caveat - on some rifles they have photos mixed up i.e. two different rifles images and on others when you zoom in it only gives you a portion of the thumbnail shown.
You can also contact the BBHC and order prints.........

As for wood choice - to quote Don again - I could count the number of originals stocked in walnut on one hand - they were made, but are exceedingly rare.

Some additional info from Don
Quote
On most rifles, including Hawkens, the ramrods are apportioned to the bore size. Ramrods are almost always tapered but thimbles may not be. On my original fullstock Hawken which is roughly a 52 cal, all three thimbles have ID's of .485 My late halfstock is approx 50 cal. The front and middle thimble are .445 ID and the entry is .425.
As I am sure I have posted here before, Hawken barrels are mostly tapers with straights and swamps being the rarities. My fullstock is 1.040 taper to .970 and 37" (long). Fullstocks tend to be smaller barrels with less taper than the half stocks. Personally, I would not go larger than 1 1/16 at breech . With a flint tang I would go 38" long.


hope this helps..........
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 12:14:21 PM by ChuckBurrows »
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline John Archer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2009, 10:00:11 PM »
John, that's a great butt plate, and a dead ringer for Don's J & S Hawken plate, plus the added authenticity of the construction.

It's close...the Modena Hawken is a fairly massive rifle.... the butt plate is taller and the heel extension is longer. One of the few stocked in walnut.

John.
I cannot be left unsupervised.
(Sent from my immobile dial-operated telephone)

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2009, 04:43:18 AM »





Which  is based on a FS original Don King had access to in the 1970s.
Dan
  Dan, what lock is that in the bottom photo? Dan

The only parts on the entire rifle that Don bought were the springs for the lock, the cock, frizzen and barrel. Everything else was shop made.
I have thought about having my lock cast, I may talk to Don about it. Shiloh Rifle has a foundry about 1/2 mile from my house...
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2009, 05:17:29 PM »
My friend Louie Parker made this rifle, and I'm just posting the pictures for him.

This rifle is his attempt to copy a J&S Hawken that is pictured in Jim Gordans book. (the original gun is in a Texas collection ) Like mentioned  in another post, most everything had to be special made.

I don't know the specs of the gun, but if anyone wants to know, he can answer.













John
John Robbins

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2009, 05:40:25 PM »
JTR...I like it!  His attention to detail is excellent.  Thanks for those pics.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline John Archer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
  • I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2009, 07:43:48 PM »
Anytime you have a chance to see a Louie Parker rifle or pistol take advantage of the opportunity. He is an incredible gunmaker.

John.
I cannot be left unsupervised.
(Sent from my immobile dial-operated telephone)

Dancy

  • Guest
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2009, 09:38:21 PM »
I saw it in TN and it is an amazing rifle!

Offline Ben I. Voss

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2009, 10:43:10 PM »
Now that is an awesome looking hawken rifle!!! I love it!

Offline Dan'l 1946

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 628
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2009, 05:37:24 AM »





Which  is based on a FS original Don King had access to in the 1970s.
Dan
  Dan, what lock is that in the bottom photo? Dan

The only parts on the entire rifle that Don bought were the springs for the lock, the cock, frizzen and barrel. Everything else was shop made.
I have thought about having my lock cast, I may talk to Don about it. Shiloh Rifle has a foundry about 1/2 mile from my house...
Dan


Pity they won't make a run of the castings. I'd think they would have plenty of takers.  Dan





Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2009, 04:08:48 PM »
My friend Louie Parker made this rifle, and I'm just posting the pictures for him.

This rifle is his attempt to copy a J&S Hawken that is pictured in Jim Gordans book. (the original gun is in a Texas collection ) Like mentioned  in another post, most everything had to be special made.

I don't know the specs of the gun, but if anyone wants to know, he can answer.




John

This has the correct look. Many people make Hawkens. Few make them right. This one looks right.
When people look at a rifle they must look past the finish, color etc. to see the lines.
I too really like this one.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline doulos

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
Re: J&S Hawken stocks
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2009, 04:03:16 AM »
Dphariss
what is the caliber of that fullstock hawken you make everyone drool over all the time?