Kit difficulty: TVM, Chambers, Kibler, Pecatonica...

[Cossack]

I've been looking at possibly doing a kit while I'm stuck at home and even have a want ad going in the classifieds. I've never built a kit before. I have some tools and a bench, but not a lot of woodworking experience.

I've been offered a new Chambers kit that I'm thinking hard on. I've also looked a lot at the Kibler kits, and know that they come highly recommended to beginners and that they are probably the easiest high quality kit for a beginner. However, based on price, styles offered, and difficulty, I've been wondering about a few other makers. Obviously Chambers offers many more style options, and others offer even more or different options from Chambers.

I saw a video of an unboxing of a TVM Tennessee rifle and was surprised at how much of the inletting was already done - the barrel was already fully in place and the lock fully inletted. Would a TVM kit be accessible to a beginner? Would it require more or less work than a Chambers kit?

Where do other kit suppliers, such as Pecatonica or Sitting fox, fit in the spectrum?

Thanks!

[FALout]

First, if you haven’t done so already, get the book by Peter Alexander called “The Gunsmith of Greenville County”.  There some others but their names are not jumping into my head at this moment.  You should really have an idea of what style of rifle you want, that can narrow down who’s kit to buy.  The next thing is that some kits are not just sitting there waiting to be bought and shipped.  Kibler I’m sure still has a waiting list.  I won’t get into who you should buy from even tho I’ve built from almost all the suppliers listed, for some (as it was for me in the past) it can be more about cost, and with cost differences come the amount of work left for the builder.  Get a book on building and then decide if your up for the challenge.  Good luck on what you choose.
Bob

[Ats5331]

For a beginner with little woodworking experience, the way to go is Kibler. Kits are a bit pricey, but worth it. You can see how the rifle is really meant to go together. A suggestion is taking pictures of when you get the stock of all the inletting; this a way to see how much work really goes into the rifle.

I built my first rifle starting at age 13 all by hand, and recently built a Kibler (11 years later). Building a Kibler kit will teach you about the challenges, but not present them to you on your first build.

Good Luck and welcome to the hobby!

[Cossack]

First, if you haven’t done so already, get the book by Peter Alexander called “The Gunsmith of Greenville County”.  There some others but their names are not jumping into my head at this moment.  You should really have an idea of what style of rifle you want, that can narrow down who’s kit to buy.  The next thing is that some kits are not just sitting there waiting to be bought and shipped.  Kibler I’m sure still has a waiting list.  I won’t get into who you should buy from even tho I’ve built from almost all the suppliers listed, for some (as it was for me in the past) it can be more about cost, and with cost differences come the amount of work left for the builder.  Get a book on building and then decide if your up for the challenge.  Good luck on what you choose.
Bob

Thanks for your input. I have a good sense of the different schools and what I like about them, which is why I’m interested at looking at some makers beyond just Kibler, although I would be proud to on either of his offerings. I may still go that route. I also have several books on building long rifles.“Re-creating the American long rifle“ and “the art of building the Pennsylvania long rifle“

I also am aware of my own limitations. It’s because of that, that I am curious about the level of difficulty of the offerings of different sellers. You mentioned in your post the differences in the amount of work left for the builder. That’s what I’m trying to figure out: how much work is left for the builder in the offerings of each of these sellers. I can’t tell, just by reading their website, how much work is left for the builder. That’s why I mentioned the Video I saw about TVM. I was under the impression that if you bought one of their kids, there would be a lot of major in leading work to do, but from what I saw in the video much of that was already done, and I was surprised. So I’m trying to figure out how much work is left for the builder in the kids offered by different sellers.

[jerrywh]

If you can't build a Kibler you won't be able to build anything.

[Cossack]

If you can't build a Kibler you won't be able to build anything.

That’s what I have heard. However, it’s not that I am worried about not being able to do a Kibler kit. Other makers offer different patterns and styles from His two offerings. I’m wondering how other kits compare in terms of work left for the builder. I really like Lancaster and York patterns as well as Bucks County patterns (the latter being one of the harder to find, although Pecatonica and Sitting Fox offer "Verner" kits). TVMs Tennessee guns also appeal to me, but I'd probably prefer one of the aforementioned Pennsylvania styles.

I do like the Kibler kits and may go with one even so, as I understand how they are probably the best combination of accessibility for a new builder and high quality. I just wish I had a better understanding of the spectrum of how much work is needed t o complete each kit seller's offerings.

[Dennis Glazener]

Yesterday at 9:23 PM
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#1
I've been looking at possibly doing a kit while I'm stuck at home and even have a want ad going in the classifieds. I've never built a kit before. I have some tools and a bench, but not a lot of woodworking experience.

I've been offered a new Chambers kit that I'm thinking hard on. I've also looked a lot at the Kibler kits, and know that they come highly recommended to beginners and that they are probably the easiest high quality kit for a beginner. However, based on price, styles offered, and difficulty, I've been wondering about a few other makers. Obviously Chambers offers many more style options, and others offer even more or different options from Chambers.

I saw a video of an unboxing of a TVM Tennessee rifle and was surprised at how much of the inletting was already done - the barrel was already fully in place and the lock fully inletted. Would a TVM kit be accessible to a beginner? Would it require more or less work than a Chambers kit?

Where do other kit suppliers, such as Pecatonica or Sitting fox, fit in the spectrum?

Thanks!

I want to warn you about pre-inlet kits ALL of the pre-inlet kits I have done have at least some of the mortise too tight for whatever is to fit that mortise. For me it's the most aggravating thing in the world to have to center a lock plate over a  mortise that requires 1/64" or less to be removed evenly all around the mortise. I would prefer to inlet the lock from scratch! Maybe others don't mind but I hate it.

On my last Kibler kit it was so close to fitting I filed the metal off the lock plate rather than to opening the mortise.
Dennis

[pjmcdonald]

Cossack,

I’ve done a TVM kit from Matt Avance (Natchez, MS). My dad has done a kit from the other TVM, Jack Garner (Corinth, MS). Both were good “kits” but not exactly historically accurate. As TVM advertises, they are “in the style of.” If historical accuracy is important, go with Kibler or Chambers.

Both TVM kits required a fair bit of work. Definitely not straightforward or quick. After my experiences with those kits, I’ve gone to building from a plank. In some ways, more work but easier. Pop and I had the assistance of a serious pro, Jim Parker, in learning to assemble the kits and end up with a good looking, functional rifle.

For example, I’d much rather do my own lock inletting now. Easier to get the proper alignment with pan, touch hole, breach, etc.

No experience with Chambers kits, though his locks are top notch.

From what I’ve seen in classes, Kibler’s are a different league for the beginner. Everything fits where it should. No fiddling.

So, how much work do you want to do? How much do you want to learn? How much do you want to invest in tools? The folks here have been incredibly helpful when I’ve gotten stuck. I also enjoy the challenges (usually) of solving problems.

Buy books first!

Lastly, I went “all in” about 3 years ago. This is my hobby.

Hi, my name is Paul. I’m a longrifle addict.

Regards,
Paul

[Cossack]

That was very informative. Thank you Paul.

I also want eveyone to understand I am not looking for anyone to state that such-and-such a kit merchant is "better" than another. I am not soliciting an endorsement or a criticism of any sellers. Each sells with a particular skill level of buyer in mind and I would like more information about how much work each seller's kit leaves to the buyer so that I don't get a kit and get too far over my own head. I have some books and can look at what's involved with each step, such as inletting different parts, but very little experience. If i knew how much work was involved in, say, a Pecatonica Verner kit, then I'd know whether or not to try my hand at that (Bucks County might just be my favorite of all so-called "schools" of longrifle) or to put it in the "maybe someday.." bin.

[Cossack]

that's a helpful consideration, Dennis.

Perhaps a more helpful way for me to put this would be:
If you've ever used one of these kits, what is already done and what is left to do? A Kibler kit has everything inlet and mostly fitted, down to the holes being drilled.

In a Chambers or TVM (for example) kit, what's done and what's still to do? What parts (trgger, trigger plate, buttplate, lock, sideplate, barrel tang, dovetails on barrel, etc...) is inlet and/or fitted, and what's left to be done? That way I can look in my books at the process involved for each step and decide if I feel up for tacking that step.

I bring this up partially because I assumed that a TVM kit had less done on it than what I saw in this video:

Paul, is this about what you experienced in your TVM kit?

[vtmtnman]

Yesterday at 9:23 PM
Add bookmark
#1
I've been looking at possibly doing a kit while I'm stuck at home and even have a want ad going in the classifieds. I've never built a kit before. I have some tools and a bench, but not a lot of woodworking experience.

I've been offered a new Chambers kit that I'm thinking hard on. I've also looked a lot at the Kibler kits, and know that they come highly recommended to beginners and that they are probably the easiest high quality kit for a beginner. However, based on price, styles offered, and difficulty, I've been wondering about a few other makers. Obviously Chambers offers many more style options, and others offer even more or different options from Chambers.

I saw a video of an unboxing of a TVM Tennessee rifle and was surprised at how much of the inletting was already done - the barrel was already fully in place and the lock fully inletted. Would a TVM kit be accessible to a beginner? Would it require more or less work than a Chambers kit?

Where do other kit suppliers, such as Pecatonica or Sitting fox, fit in the spectrum?

Thanks!

I want to warn you about pre-inlet kits ALL of the pre-inlet kits I have done have at least some of the mortise too tight for whatever is to fit that mortise. For me it's the most aggravating thing in the world to have to center a lock plate over a  mortise that requires 1/64" or less to be removed evenly all around the mortise. I would prefer to inlet the lock from scratch! Maybe others don't mind but I hate it.

On my last Kibler kit it was so close to fitting I filed the metal off the lock plate rather than to opening the mortise.
Dennis

I'd have to second wanting to inlet things from the start myself.Granted I'm a newbie,but the pre inletted stock I got from Pecatonica left me wishing most of the inlets weren't done.I didn't like where the barrel breech and the lock ended up (Wish the breech plug ended up a touch further forward.I also would've rathe did the trigger inlet myself.Gun has good ignition but I get why experienced folks dislike inletted stocks.

[smart dog]

Hi,
You wrote that you know the differences in styles of long rifles.  If that is really true and you actually understand the nuances and details that distinguish different styles and want a rifle that is of one of those styles, then that narrows your field a little.  TVM's offerings are generically shaped and really don't match any schools.  Perhaps they fit some basic Lancaster style but with the thick web of wood between the barrel and ramrod, it is hard to give them the slim profile with the ramrod nicely tucked up under the muzzle.  If you just want a vanilla rifle to shoot, they are good products. Chambers, Knob Mountain, Clay Smith get you much closer to historically accurate styling, which in my opinion is also much more aesthetically pleasing.   Kits from Track of the Wolf and Pecatonica are OK as well but the three I mentioned previously likely are more historically accurate.  However, keep in mind that all of those kits can still result in slab sided hockey sticks in the hands of folks who don't know how to shape a stock.  The only kits that almost guarantee you will end up with a well shaped gun regardless of the skill and knowledge of the builder are the Kiblers.  I say almost guarantee because I saw one up for sale on Track's site that was butchered.  The guy really had to work at ruining that gun.  The links below are to threads on building 2 of Chambers kits: 
 https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-chambers-little-fellas-rifle.110688/
 https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/building-a-chambers-isaac-haines-rifle-kit.116533/   

dave

[thecapgunkid]

Cossack, try not to overthink yourself into the ground.  If you do that then any kit you get will disappoint you.

At best, I have advanced to a mediocre builder whose guns show an occasional scratch, file mark or mistake that would put them in line with the original gunmakers.  I will never be good enough to be in the same league with the guys who build for real.  So, here's some two cents;

Stay on this forum in a daily, browsing way.  You're gonna find value big time by doing that.

See if you are willing to pay for two videos;  one by Hershel House where he builds a gun from a plank and one by Jim Turpin where he assembles a component set.

Stick with it.  You're gonna make mistakes, so go slowly and exercise a lot of patience.

Generally, the Kibler kit is almost done and is so well crafted as to maybe not challenge you

Generally, Jim Chambers kits require more skills, but newbies can build them

Generally, Pecatonica, Knob Mountain, Muzzleloader Building  Supplies and a host of other vendors plugged into this forum will offer more supplies and parts than you will need and are all very helpful

Generally

So, welcome aboard.  You'll figure it out.

Oh, one more thing...being socially distanced, I am re-stocking the first gun I made because it was atrocious.  As I learned and got better, I found that I could not live with it anymore.  That'll happen.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid

The Capgun Kid

[snapper]

One of the other things to consider is your time.   How much time are you really wanting to spend building it?  There are a lot of people that will buy a kit, start working on it and other things get in the way.   Then a year latter they are still working on it.

My first kit rifle was the Jim Bridger Hawken from TOW.  I dont remember how long it took, but I think it was perhaps a year or more.

For my first rifle, I wished there was a Kibler available.   It would of been quicker and easier to get started, and I would of been shooting it much sooner.

Do you think you will only build one rifle?   IF you do a Kibler, get yourself shooting it, then start putting the pieces together for your next build and it can take as long as you want since you will be shooting your fist rifle.

Fleener

[Scota4570]

Kiblers' almost fall together.  Jim's  locks are the best available.  Unfortunately Jim Kibler only makes two styles of rife.  Chambers was the gold standard until Jim Kibler came along.  They are also top quality and will make a fine rifle. There are more choices with Chambers. 

The rest are parts sets, they are a set of parts that you probably can use to make a rifle.  The vendor supplies the parts, in one box,  that you will need, from various parts suppliers for you.  This saves you time on getting the parts from the various suppliers. 

Sometimes there are problems that can not be reconciled.  For instance the lock inlet is in the wrong place and the touch hole can not be properly located.  Maybe the barrel channel is cocked downward and too deep at the breech.  If you go this way do not get one with the lock inlet in place.  There may be gaps in the machine done inletting that require glued in patches.  The wood quality can vary quite a bit.

For my first long rifle, I did an Armstrong from such a parts set.  It took about 150 hours.  By the end I was pretty tired if it. 

I tried to complete a Hawken from a parts set.  The barrel inlet was too deep in the breech area.
While trying to make the stock work I ruined the hammer and lock plate.  I had to buy a new lock. I build the stock from a plank.  The plank build took less time than I spent on the bad pre carved stock.  On this one I had about $400 wasted over an unusable stock that I didn't catch soon enough. 

I have given up on "parts sets".  I spend lots of time figuring how how to repair or work around problems with pantograph stocks.  I find it less frustrating to build from planks.  With a plank you can keep it all square and put the parts where they belong. Only after all the metal is in place shape the stock  With a pre carved stock it is already round, so you have no easy way to reference plum and square.   A beginner might become frustrated and give up.  I would not recommend a regular old school parts set for a beginners first build. 

[Bob McBride]

Excellent point. These ‘kits’, except for Kibler, can be better understood as ‘parts sets’ with from a poor to really pretty good head start on the woodwork.

Duelist1954 on YouTube has a half dozen video series on YouTube where he finishes these‘kits’.

[bama]

Kit rifles are not all created equal so you have to make a choice depending on what you want to achieve from the building experience. First let me say that I like Jim Kibler's kits, they are very well made and make into a great rifle with little effort. The only down side is that you will not learn many of the basic skills needed to actually build a rifle because all of that work is done for you. Jim's kits are so well done that he has eliminated all the mistakes as far as layout goes. Everything is in its proper location, all of the major holes are drilled and tapped if needed, even the lock bolts are at their correct length and do not have to be trimmed. It is basically, unpack, assemble, do a little sanding and then finish. When you're finished you will have a great looking and proper functioning rifle.

If you want to become a builder then you will want to go with some of the kits that have less of the work done for you. If you have access to someone who has experience to help you take advantage of that. If not think about taking one of the building classes that are available.

I teach classes, I recommend the parts kits from Tennessee Valley Manufacturing. I have Jack do the basic shaping, inlet the barrel, cut the ram for groove but not drill the hole, we drill the ram for hole in the class. Jack can inlet the lock and triggers for you if you want them done. I usually have the students do this work so I don't have Jack do these inlets. I do have Jack pre cut for the butt plate and length of pull. All of the other work is done by the students. Even though I have Jack pre shape the stocks there is enough wood left to make several different schools or styles of rifles and do carving.

Some of the kit providers are not as flexible as Jack but many will work with you if ask for something specific. With these types of kits you will learn more of the basic skills needed to become a builder. You will have many more opportunities to learn what not to do but you will know why.

Building from a blank is the next step, once you get to this point you are well on your way to being a rifle builder.

[Frank]

Nothing is fully inletted on all of those kits except Jim Kibler’s. Many times it is more difficult to fit a 90 percent inlet part than doing the complete inlet yourself

[Roughneck]

i have only built one rifle and it was from a Pecatonica Lehigh kit.  I chose to inlet everything except barrel and ramrod channel as I wanted to learn how to do most of the inletting & understand each step.  I was able to use a friend of mines shop who had all the correct tools to build a flintlock so that helped immensely and he was there if I had questions plus I have a strong background in gunsmithing so I had a lot of confidence in my abilities.  I would not know which way to sway you to go as I have wanted to build a Kibler colonial kit for some time but I feel like if I build another it will be a Chambers York or a Pecatonica Verner.  but in my mind its not the ease of the build it would come down to which style rifle I would want.

I know your not too far from me and your more than welcome to come up to my place to shoot some of my rifles that way you can actually see which styles you prefer.  I have many different rifles & fowlers all different styles.  that way you could make an educated decision on which style rifle you want to go with.     

[oldtravler61]

  Cossack I'll put it this way..I have built several kits , Traditions T.C. CVA an part sets from others over the years. Some good some not.  Now two kibler. One colonial an one smr. From unboxing to gun in white ready to shoot. Less than twenty five hours. THEY are that easy.... This is without stain an finish an no extras like carving..etc. Could have done it in a lot less. Their is NO kit simpler than Jim's JM2C.  Oldtravler

[pjmcdonald]

Cossack,

The video you showed is about what I got. I did not have the lock bolts drilled and tapped, nor did I have the vent liner installed and drilled. I did have TVM drill the ramrod hole - mistake. The web between RR channel and barrel is too thick. I also needed to adjust barrel inlet a bit.

Couple things that just don’t look right, now that I’ve learned more. First, wrong lock. Instead of Siler (Germanic), looks better with late Ketland or other English style. Tang is square.  Should be long and tapered. Neither affect how it functions - took a nice buck last season with mine.

There is a lot of wood still to remove, especially to get a nice slim rifle.

Jim has already given you good info on TN Valley Manufacturing (Jack Garner) kits/part sets. They show up about the same.

Parts set is a good way to start. Some suggestions though: don’t have the lock or triggers inlet, don’t have the vent liner installed or touch hole drilled, don’t have the ramrod hole drilled. Everything else is enough to get you headed in the right direction.

Another plug for Bill Raby and Duelist1964 build videos on YouTube.

Good luck, 
Paul

[Bob Roller]

If you can't build a Kibler you won't be able to build anything.

Be careful Jerry. WE both know there are people that can wreck an anvil with a rubber hammer .
Bob Roller

[flehto]

If you just  want A LR, buy a Kibler kit but if you want to start  learning how to build a LR, consider a parts set from Pecatonica, Chambers, TOW, Dunlap and others. I've "built" 3 Chambers early Lancaster  parts sets and to start, all had some minor mistakes which weren't all that much to fix. Chambers  flintlocks  are the best production locks IMO and his brass items are investment cast and require only  a few hrs to finish. The lock is mainly inletted but has some tight spots and should be nearly "home" and the TH location must be marked on the side of the bbl  so when  setting back the bbl, the TH is centered w/ the pan and  the tang , 3 RR pipes , Mcap, trigger pate  and trigger and sideplate  have to be fully or  partially  inletted and the Bplate has to be inletted.  All the screws, bolts and pin holes have to be drilled and the lockbolt  holes in the lockplate and the tang screw  hole in the  trigger plate has  to be tapped. I think the dovetail slots for the front sight and bbl lugs are done, but the rear sight requires filing a dovetail. You mentioned that a Bucks County LR is one of your favorites....don't know if all the parts are available for a Shuler.....probably are  for a Verner BC.

Chambers parts sets have swamped bbls ….some of the others have straight sided bbls on certain styles.

The 2 "how to " books you have  are excellent and "Recreating...…" bu Buchele has been my mainstay. Hope the above helps somewhat.

Whichever way you go.....good luck......Fred

[silky]

The kits from Cabin Creek Muzzleloading are often overlooked, and I'm not sure why.  The first Longrifle I ever built was their Pennsylvania Mountain Rifle and, looking back on it, I'd say it was the right mix of skill-building while still having enough of the heavy work already done so that it wasn't too intimidating to a first-time builder.  And along those lines, I really liked "The Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle" as my guide on that first one, as it kept things basic enough that I didn't get lost in the minutia and details while building it.

I'm very much a novice in this hobby but I do believe that building the Cabin Creek rifle helped me build some skills and think through the build, starting on rifle #1... the right spot on the learning curve, if you will. 

Just my .02 from my own experience, and I hope it helps.

- Tom

[Scota4570]

Kibler kits, for a new builder, provide  a very important lesson, they show how a good rifle is made.  It is nice to see and touch  really nice rifle in the beginning. There are lots of rifles made that are too chunky, have poor architecture, or use substandard building practices.  Assembling a Kibler is like training wheels for a new builder.   

A Kibler will take few specialized tools.  I have a drawer full of chisels and gouges and another drawer full of rasps and files.  I also have machine tools and welding equipment.  Most of us have these tools.   A new guy will not have them.  For a Kibler he will not need them.