Anyone shoot a Gain twist barrel ?

[recurve]

Boredom is getting deep But I wanted to see if anyone has a gain twist barrel experience.   

[smylee grouch]

I have shot one that a friend had. With an exact load it shot good but if you varied from that powder charge a little the groups started to open up. Don,t remember the amount of gain but I,m thinking that less gain might shoot better. Just an idea that I had wanted to try some day.

[Daryl]

Dphar's plank rifle has a McLemore gain twist barrel on it. Dan is un-defeatable when he's shooting that flinter.
Shooting turkey heads at 60 yards, rest. Load is 110gr. Swiss.



McLemore barrels here.
http://www.sleepyhillbarrels.com/About.html

[alyce-james]

recurve; Sir, way back in the 1970's, Numrich Arms, had a Gain Twist feature in there barrel selection. A club member purchased, I think it was a.45 caliber. Members of the club fired the flintlock, that day, with very good success.I would think it over. Have a good week. AJ.

[sqrldog]

Bobby Hoyt builds gain twist barrels. I have a couple and they shoot great. Big bore .60 cal. but are really accurate.  Bobby's personal hunting rifle has a gain twist barrel on it. He must think they shoot okay. Bobby could probably give you some insight into  gain twist barrels and their performance.  Tim

[Longknife]

I had Bob Hoyt drill and rifle an original barrel back in 80 or 81. It was off of a J Hayden Ohio squirrel rifle. He said he had not done gain twist on that small of a bore. He bored it to .40 and the gain was 1/60 to 1/40.  It  shot real good with 40 grains FFF. I still have that rifle, just cleaned it, oiled put it back in the cabinet,,,,Ed

[Bob Roller]

If they're made right they will beat about anything going.I remember helping Bill Large
in making a gain twist guide for a manually powered rifling machine.There were only a
few made but they really worked.Some barrels like those used for long bullets had a
very small gain such as a 1 in 16 starting twist ending in a 1 in 15 and 1/4.This was a
Harry Pope barrel.N.G.Whitmore made 12 groove barrels with a gain twist and according
to Major Ned Roberts,some of Whitmore's guns were considered as "unfair competition".
Whitmore's barrels were Picket Bullet guns which today is seldom discussed or even known.
I had a Whitmore 40 caliber Picket gun and never fired it in the 12 years I owned it
because the loading procedure was to me,a nuisance.If the bullet isn't started JUST RIGHT
any hope of accuracy is gone.A round ball has almost no bearing surface by its shape and
the gain twist is ideal for it.
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Well, there is "something" to the gaining twist, even in modern guns for bench rest. LONG barrels are gauged on a highly sophisticated machine and
are cut if possible, where there is an increase in the rate of twist, however slight. These barrels are the "screamers" some books (and records) are written
 about and are the barrels that produce most records.
Thus, yes - there is truth to the premise that gain twist barrels show the "potential" for greatness over even twist barrels.

[R.J.Bruce]

I have talked with Scott at Colerain several times over the past couple of months regarding their gain twist barrels.

Their "standard" barrel, if you will, seems to be the Classic American pattern swamped barrel with a gain twist.

Not only will the gain twist shoot a patched ball well, but with a tightly-fitting over powder wad to fill the 0.016" deep radius-bottom grooves, grease groove bullets may also be shot with good accuracy.

One of his customers is a nationally known gun writer that has multiple guns/barrels in .58 caliber with the gain twist. He was planning to take at least one of these rifles to Africa on a hunt, before the Covid-19 restrictions came about.

Rate of twist at the breech is 1-96". Rate of twist at the muzzle can vary, down to a fast 1-30" (If the customer is willing to pay a little extra to have the angle of the rifling cutter modified)(a normal rate of twist at the muzzle is usually more like a 1-48", which does not require modifying the cutter)

As the rate of twist at the muzzle speeds up (1-30"), the rate of twist at the breech speeds up to match the muzzle (approx. 1-72")(42" barrel)

There are several gain twist barrels in Colerain's Current Inventory, both straight octagon and swamped octagon.

[Levy]

I have a Nelson Lewis percussion combination gun that according to Ned Robert's book, has a gain twist barrel.  Supposedly, Mr. Lewis only produced gain twist barrels.  It is a .40 cal. and I've hunted squirrels with it, but have done no serious target work with it.  Both the shotgun (12 ga.) and the rifle bores are near perfect condition.  Deserves some investigation.  James Levy

[Daryl]

I find that one very interesting, James.  Inquiring minds want to know. In  Robert's book, they are bullet shooting rifles.

[Levy]

Daryl,  My Nelson Lewis combination gun (12/.40) doesn't have a turned muzzle for a starter or a false muzzle.  Without either of those, I don't think you could start a bullet properly aligned into the bore.  I ran a patch down the shiny barrel last night and I can't honestly tell if there is an increase in the twist or not.  James Levy

[Daryl]

Tks James. I recall Ned Robert's Lewis SxS shot picket bullets and did not have a false muzzle nor guide bullet starter as mentioned in his 1934 book. (The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle)
Seems to me his Uncle Alvaro also had a SxS (Billinghurst) for picket bullet and it also did not have false muzzle nor guide bullet starter.
Perhaps they shot groove lubricated bullets and not the pointy patched ones?
Of course, it's been almost 50 years since I read that book.

[L. Akers]

  I ran a patch down the shiny barrel last night and I can't honestly tell if there is an increase in the twist or not.  James Levy

The increase in twist would be very slight.  Harry Pope used a gain twist that increased 1/4 turn in the length of the barrel. IE, 1 in 14" at the breech to 1 in 13.75" at the muzzle. Your barrel is probably similar.

[Daryl]

L Aker's that's 1/4" increase, not a quarter turn. 1/4" is minimal, but if correct rate for the bullet used, is totally sufficient.
The BR boys are looking for ANY increase in rate - even just a few thousandths makes a difference. It's the slowing of the
rate of twist that ruins accuracy.

[yulzari]

Yesterday at 2:38 PM
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#14
There is an argument for a losing twist barrel. i.e. the opposite of gaining twist. This looks at RPS*. The bullet begins at a low velocity and progressively gets faster as it moves up the barrel. Going from zero upon ignition to exit with the final muzzle velocity.

Thus, for the same RPS, the slow initial speed needs a fast twist but the need for a fast twist diminishes as the bullet speeds up so it can exit with a slower twist for that same RPS. Therefore the logic is that a losing twist, suitably chosen, will give a constant RPS for the bullet as it transits the barrel. If the stress upon the bullet (i.e. friction and taking up/maintaining the rifling) is proportional to the RPS rather than the velocity, then the losing twist will minimise that stress.

* RPS is Revolutions Per Second.

[smylee grouch]

Gosh this could get techno. My simple mind tells me that as the twist increases so does RPM and as the speed increases also so does RPM. A long time ago an old bench shooter told me if you wanted a stable bullet you needed enough RPM just before,just as and just after the speed of sound and the vel. and RPM both slowed down as you go down range. I don,t have any proof or know how to prove this statement so if some one can and wants to they could explain to me if and why I,m right or wrong. This might be a real can-o-worms. 

[Daryl]

For bullet shooting, the rate of twist is very important, less so with round balls as we know a very wide range of twist rates work with round balls
but very much less so with conical bullets.
As we are mostly concerned with round ball shooting, what works, works.  I must reiterate here and say that Dan's McLemore gain twist barrel is nigh
unbeatable in plank shooting. What it's rate of twist is, I don't know. What I do know, is that he uses 110gr. Swiss in it with a patched .50 round ball
for shooting 60 yards.

[Daryl]

Yesterday at 2:38 PM
Add bookmark
#14
There is an argument for a losing twist barrel. i.e. the opposite of gaining twist. This looks at RPS*. The bullet begins at a low velocity and progressively gets faster as it moves up the barrel. Going from zero upon ignition to exit with the final muzzle velocity.

Thus, for the same RPS, the slow initial speed needs a fast twist but the need for a fast twist diminishes as the bullet speeds up so it can exit with a slower twist for that same RPS. Therefore the logic is that a losing twist, suitably chosen, will give a constant RPS for the bullet as it transits the barrel. If the stress upon the bullet (i.e. friction and taking up/maintaining the rifling) is proportional to the RPS rather than the velocity, then the losing twist will minimise that stress.

* RPS is Revolutions Per Second.

There is no reason to change the twist inside a barrel, other than to constantly increase the pressure generated to expel the projectile.  A slowing rate of twist, or relaxing rate of twist will not maintain an ever increasing pressure, but would allow a drop of pressure and thus, it appears, the proper burning of the powder.

Slowing the rate of twist serves no ballistic purpose I can see.  You can have a slow twist, you can have a moderate or fast twist. The BR shooters of today have proven an increasing twist
benefits accuracy.

Since an increasing pressure (curve) at the muzzle, from choking or in rifling rate increase benefits ball and bullet accuracy, it seems prudent to stay or adhere to those systems.
We know that there is a pressure range where various powders seem to "work best" in producing consistent results.  This is the same with modern powder.  That being the variation of
velocity shot to shot is kept low and this in turn has the potential to produce the best accuracy.
Increasing the rate of twist at the muzzle, or choking, both appear to have this positive effect.

[hanshi]

Some 55 years ago I ordered a .45 rifle from Numrich Arms, an H&A.  I specified a gain twist barrel.  I still have that rifle.  I can no longer shoot well enough to test one barrel against another, but that's alright.  I fired this one so much that there was/is no doubt it equals or possibly beats any barrel I've had since.  The difference, if any, might be very small but it is definitely one fantastically accurate barrel.

[yulzari]

There is no reason to change the twist inside a barrel, other than to constantly increase the pressure generated to expel the projectile.  A slowing rate of twist, or relaxing rate of twist will not maintain an ever increasing pressure, but would allow a drop of pressure and thus, it appears, the proper burning of the powder.

Slowing the rate of twist serves no ballistic purpose I can see.  You can have a slow twist, you can have a moderate or fast twist. The BR shooters of today have proven an increasing twist
benefits accuracy.

Since an increasing pressure (curve) at the muzzle, from choking or in rifling rate increase benefits ball and bullet accuracy, it seems prudent to stay or adhere to those systems.
We know that there is a pressure range where various powders seem to "work best" in producing consistent results.  This is the same with modern powder.  That being the variation of
velocity shot to shot is kept low and this in turn has the potential to produce the best accuracy.
Increasing the rate of twist at the muzzle, or choking, both appear to have this positive effect.

I do not advocate a losing twist myself but I do understand the logic that is employed for it. Equally I am not convinced of the logic for a gaining twist either although I do understand the argument for that also.

The ball only knows the twist it gets coming out and a constant twist does that quite adequately. If the argument for a gaining twist is valid then the time to reach for it is if the stress of jumping straight into the final twist on ignition is causing the ball to strip on the rifling.

[Daryl]

 

If the argument for a gaining twist is valid then the time to reach for it is if the stress of jumping straight into the final twist on ignition is causing the ball to strip on the rifling.

I don't see that as a valid argument, that the gain twist is only useful to prevent stripping at the point of ignition.  With the loads we (and Dan) use, there is no possibility of stripping
at any time - yet he is nigh unbeatable and shoots against some excellent target shooters.

[yulzari]

I don't see that as a valid argument, that the gain twist is only useful to prevent stripping at the point of ignition.  With the loads we (and Dan) use, there is no possibility of stripping
at any time - yet he is nigh unbeatable and shoots against some excellent target shooters.

I am genuinely puzzled. If there is no stripping issue at these loads then why would the gaining twist in the barrel make a difference when the bullet is emerging with the final twist rotation? Any twist earlier on would not affect the ball at that point and would emerge with the same rotation were the barrel at constant twist would it not? So the external ballistics would be identical were the barrel a gain twist or constant twist?

I am sure there are users of gain twist barrels who produce exemplary results and that is a tribute to the quality of their arms and skills but I remain unconvinced that a gaining twist is the cause; with the minor proviso that it might mitigate stripping when that should be an issue. Forsyth simply used a slow twist when he addressed issues of stripping with heavy large bores and spherical balls which let him use heavy charges for a flatter trajectory in his slow narrow land 'Forsyth' rifling. That, of course, becomes only relevant above 20 bore sizes as the lesser rotational inertia of smaller balls demands rifling too fast for his solution. But I think I digress, however fascinating Forsyth rifling may be.

[R.J.Bruce]

I love to watch threads like this one where people argue points that they have no experience with. Coned muzzles, the Skychief load, and gain twist rifling almost always seems to bring out this opininated discussion.

It seems to me that there are some things in life that must be taken on faith as working, regardless of the rational, scientific explanation for It's working.

I know that a radius crown, aka a coned muzzle, works. Three Getz barrels with their coned muzzles taught me that. The Getz coned muzzle, IMO, was just Getz's way of marketing a radius crown.

My e-mails and phone conversations with Scott at Colerain Barrels have me ready to pull the trigger on a .40 caliber, A weight, American Classic pattern, swamped octagon rifle barrel with a fast gain twist that will allow the use of patched balls for small game, as well as 300 grain bullets for deer sized game.

And, should I ever own a smoothbore, I will certainly give the Skychief load a try, even though I have no clue why it works.

When I first got started in muzzleloading I discovered by accident some things that are not supposed to work. This was because I had no mentors, an inquisitive mind, and a God that was looking out for me to keep me from blowing myself up accidentally.

As a result, when I started shooting with older, more experienced shooters I encountered a lot of pushback for the way I did certain things. I was later to find out that my ways were not wrong, they were just different. And, that can make for a lonely life if everybody else wants to rag on you for how you shoot.

Which, I guess makes me more open to the unconventional side of things in muzzleloading. Even though I have one of the most rational, scientific minds going, I accept that there are just some things that cannot be explained to my satisfaction because they just work.

[smylee grouch]

A radius crown and coned muzzle are two different things in my mind. The radius crown is at the "crown" of the muzzle and the coned muzzle goes down into the bore. Both to ease loading.