Stitching Holes

[RoaringBull]

Am I the only one that punches all the holes first, and then stitches the leather whatever together, or do most people use the stitching pony and punch one hole at a time?

I find that if I do all of the stitches first, I can kick back on the couch and watch a movie while I sew.

[Mark Elliott]

These days, I usually punch all my holes with a diamond chisel punch and then stitch.  It seems to make my life easier.   I am open to doing things differently if presented with a convincing argument. 
 

[Mike from OK]

I used to be a big fan of the stitching chisels. But lately I've gone to using a stitching wheel to mark and an awl to poke the holes... But I cheat a little. I will put the workpiece in the pony and use the awl to poke holes in all the wheel marks that are within the stitching pony... Stitch those holes... Advance the workpiece... Poke all the holes... Stitch... And so on.

I ran into issues with the chisels if one of the pieces moved a little and then my holes wouldn't line up right. It got frustrating especially if I was putting a gusset in a bag.

That's just my experience though. Others mileage may vary.

I'd like to work up to keeping the awl in my hand and stitching each hole as I poke it. Takes a little dexterity though.

Mike

[Nordnecker]

Just some thoughts because I am new to stitching leather. For instance, If you where simply sewing two pieces together, it would be pretty simple to hold them in a pony and poke a hole with an awl, follow it out with the needle and continue merrily along. But if stitching something a little more complex like a seam with a welted gusset or fringe, it is necessary to hold these things in place and alignment. Using "Keeper stitches" is the only practical way to do this that I know. In order for your keeper stiches to be in the right place, they have to be laid out first. I don't have a wheel so I use the pricking chisels to dot off the holes, an awl to make the holes for the keepers.
Even though I have polished the pricking chisels, I really don't like using them. I have a thick cork backer but it is a bit of a struggle to get the chisel out of several layers of leather. Things get distorted. I do find it easier to poke individual holes while using the clamp. I use a cork to back up the layers of leather while I poke the awl hole. It keeps wet, flimsy leather in place in the clamp while poking the hole. I guess this is a bit unorthodox but it works.
I do admire perfectly even stitching but you don't see it inside a bag.
A rolled edge (Not sure if that's the right term) is a different situation. It seems like if you're going to do that,  you need to pay very close attention to the spacing and alignment of the stitches. I've missed the hole in the inside of the edge and had it distort the edge that I know was cut to shape accurately. Too bad I didn't catch it soon enough to correct.
I am just learning this stuff. Please feel free to comment or correct me if I am wrong.

[James Rogers]

First off let me say that most who are not formerly trained will punch all the holes in their leather. It seems to be a natural phenomenon.  I began that way ( actually pre-punching 10-15 at a time with an awl I made from an old concrete nail) Also, with the popularity of Asian punch thru chisels coming on the scene of modern hobby leather work, the mastery of true hand stitching is waning as the use of the awl along with the thread and needles requires more technique and takes longer to master. In this day instant satisfaction is king. To me, what is being created by doing so is basically a Tandy kit with the pre-punched holes and that may be factor since many who begin leather work become familiar with those kits whether they use them or not. I sew gussets and all manner of possibilities in a clam but if one never uses a clam they dont learn how. I relate it to when I first tried to carve wood and felt more comfortable using little miniature tools instead of full size ones or when learning to engrave and establishing the wrong habits before being correctly taught just because it seemed easier for me in the beginning, not knowing I was actually hindering my progress. By using a clam or even a modern pony, you get the benefit of using both hands at once to establish a consistent tension on the thread and thus better stitches. Even if one still wants to prepunch their holes and just be basically "lacing" their thread instead of actual stitching,  a clam or pony will help with that consistency of tension. By only awling one hole at a time you also dont have the leather closing up on you as much. If I can find time I might try my hand at a short video of stitching   a gusset to a bag body in a clam. I've had to cancel all my scheduled one on one classes thru most of the summer due to the China virus.  In the machine shop of late though.  That said, there are fiddly areas of saddles and other items that  need some pre-awling but for general stitching I use the awl to make the hole marked by the pricking iron and then put the needles or bristles thru, cast and pull and then on to the next stitch.
On another note, I also dont use a lot of glue or cement. For example,  many will glue  a buckle turn before stitching but I use a  couple of hand shoe tacks to hold the fold in location along with the clam itself while it is stitched. The tack ends bend a little to create a temporary grab.

[P.W.Berkuta]

It depends on the project if I pre-punch the holes or use only an awl. I will use contact cement also when called for -- so for me it's depends on what the project calls for. I don't get locked in to only one method .

[Mark Elliott]

I have to say that I have had little to no training in anything I do.   That includes what I used to do for a living in IT.   I suspect that I am far from alone in that in this group.  I would have never built guns, made horns, or bags if I had waited for someone to teach me.   That is not to say I don't value training.  It just hasn't been available.

In leather work,  I started using a stitch wheel and awl (for the better part of 40 years) , but switched to diamond chisels once I tried them (which is a fairly recent switch) They do have their drawbacks and punching through multiple layers of leather is one of them.   I had a stitching pony, and made a clam shell, but never really figured out how to use them for most of my work.  I find them awkward in stitching bags.   Obviously, that is due to a lack of training.   

I am open to training.    However, formal training has been difficult to impossible due to my physical disabilities.    Video and virtual training is certainly an option and appreciated when it is made available.   If James created videos,  I would certainly eagerly view them with interest as I do all the other tutorials presented here.   

Thanks to all who have taken the time to create tutorials, video or otherwise.    They are appreciated.

[James Rogers]

Mark,
Most of us who started in the gun game and things surrounding it prior to the internet had to use books, friends and mostly trial and error. In my opinion, if one is trying to replicate homemade items as opposed to professionally made items, the path SHOULD be of the one who has not been trained at a period trade if trying to stay anywhere in the realm of historical.
Although he has taken on some modern ideas due to his youtube business ventures,  Nigel Armistead  is professionally trained and has some good videos on the net.

[Greg Pennell]

James and Mark, a big +1 from me on Nigel Armitage videos on YouTube. He gives some of the most clear and concise instructions, and usually has very good camera positioning to show what he’s doing. Here’s a link to one of his videos on saddle stitching: 

Greg

[Mark Elliott]

Thanks for pointing me toward Nigel Armitage.

[Brokennock]

I started out pre punching all my holes, and still do sometimes. Sometimes punching with an awl along the marks indicated by the wheel, sometimes using a chisel. Which I use is determined by the leather being worked with, the stitch spacing I want, and location of the stitch line on the project. More and more I am finding advantages to poking my holes as I go along whenever possible. It is difficult though, especially as I have no pony or clam. We have been told in past topics and posts how poor the usual commercial offerings of these are, are there any sources of good ones?

[James Rogers]

I started out pre punching all my holes, and still do sometimes. Sometimes punching with an awl along the marks indicated by the wheel, sometimes using a chisel. Which I use is determined by the leather being worked with, the stitch spacing I want, and location of the stitch line on the project. More and more I am finding advantages to poking my holes as I go along whenever possible. It is difficult though, especially as I have no pony or clam. We have been told in past topics and posts how poor the usual commercial offerings of these are, are there any sources of good ones?

Brokennock,
I am currently in conversation with a Brit company in replicating their clam models from 100 years ago. Will let you know when I have some news.

[RoaringBull]

I too have no real formal training. Heck my first few bags I made I used one of those sewing awl things. I did get a few pointers from a few folks way back when. And I found Mr Albert's book.

I use a groover to make a groove and run my pricking wheel in that groove to mark my hole locations. If I am sewing a bag together and want to ensure that the holes line up I lay the pieces together on a piece of soft wood and nail them to the board in several of the stitch holes. Then I punch all of my holes. That includes the welt or gusset or whatever. Once everything is punched I grab it all and kick back in front of the TV and start sewing. My fat belly makes a pretty good tray. I have to take frequent breaks due to bursitis in my elbows though.
I've never used a pony or a clam but am not opposed to it. Just never had the chance. I'll get around to watching the videos as soon as I'm able.
I know that I need to work on getting my stitch line closer to the edge of my work. It really does make it look better.

[Brokennock]

I started out pre punching all my holes, and still do sometimes. Sometimes punching with an awl along the marks indicated by the wheel, sometimes using a chisel. Which I use is determined by the leather being worked with, the stitch spacing I want, and location of the stitch line on the project. More and more I am finding advantages to poking my holes as I go along whenever possible. It is difficult though, especially as I have no pony or clam. We have been told in past topics and posts how poor the usual commercial offerings of these are, are there any sources of good ones?

Brokennock,
I am currently in conversation with a Brit company in replicating their clam models from 100 years ago. Will let you know when I have some news.

That would be fantastic. In the meantime, are there any other websites or such that a good used one might come up for sale on, and what should one be looking for if a used one comes up for sale?

[Mike from OK]

I started out pre punching all my holes, and still do sometimes. Sometimes punching with an awl along the marks indicated by the wheel, sometimes using a chisel. Which I use is determined by the leather being worked with, the stitch spacing I want, and location of the stitch line on the project. More and more I am finding advantages to poking my holes as I go along whenever possible. It is difficult though, especially as I have no pony or clam. We have been told in past topics and posts how poor the usual commercial offerings of these are, are there any sources of good ones?

Tandy has 2 models of stitching pony... I bought the fancier one for some reason I can't recall.

I gave it a fairly rough critique but it DOES work.

My main issue is that the clamping force is done with a bolt and wingnut... The two main problems with this: A) the bolt is about middleways up the two halves, so your depth is limited... and B) the wingnut has the remarkable ability to catch your thread while you're sewing. It isn't the end of the world but it tends to be aggravating and if you don't notice when you tug the thread there is the potential to break the thread off the needle.

So if you're really needing a clam it will work. But I plan to upgrade when I can so I look forward to any information that James Rogers can provide from his inquiry.

Mike

[Jerry]

I have never used a stitching punch or a stitching pony. Just me. Jerry

[thecapgunkid]

It sounds to me that most of the issues, tools, problems, solutions and techniques here stem from the idea that most craftsmen today are using retail available tools.  Here's some of the ideas I've learned over the decades;

If you are using pricking irons, follow James Rogers' advice and don't punch all the way through the leather.  Let a good tapered and polished awl finish the hole because you will have some control that gets lost with a pre-punched hole.

If you are using a chisel, it will be inherently harder to keep stitches tighter and more even because of the slant in the slits....harder but not impossible.

Regardless, try this technique...Wax the living $#@* out of your thread, including periodically while you are stitching. Before you close each stitch, look down at it in the pony.  The thread and needle you passed from the right should ALWAYS be BEHIND the first thread you passed in from the left.  EITHER bring the left needle up through the loop OR bring the right needle down through the loop.  That way, when you close the stitch there will be a half cast in each stitch.  I'd take issue with Mr. Armstrong about how it does not help because that knot, similar to the one you make when you tie your shoes, will hold much better than a machine stitch because of the tightness and the wax.

Ref Everyman a Cobbler 1 and 2 and start tapering your thread.  Tandy has a smaller set of needles and the ten penny nails shown in most videos are always going to help a stitch wander. A marking wheel/Pricking iron combined with an awl will always beat a chisel or gaping hole similar to a Smith and Wesson and a Bible being more persuasive than a Bible.

Gently pound your stitches with a smooth faced hammer when the seam is done.  It will always help mitigate any problems and even out al lot of your work

Most of the Tandy ponies are very good for small projects but are, for the most part,  too small for the larger stuff like hunting bags.  Pray then Brokkennock finds better clams in his search.  There's a reason more substantial clams were prevalent back in the day. I'm still gonna buy one with my stimulus check, tho, because they are useful and convenient for a lot of small projects....You know...sort of like harness where straps precluded the need for forms, even though harness makers used forms when trying to be a shoemaker wannabee in making bags and such .  Sorry James, coffee's on me if we ever meet at Dixons.

Is it worth writing a post with a lot of pics that will show how to work with clamps?
Can I get some of the whiz kids who have posted such great work to contribute to the posts?

Maybe we could build a Pullitzer Prize winner right here in the forum

[RoaringBull]

Gentlemen, in your opinion, which is the better beast, a pony or a clam, for stitching?

[thecapgunkid]

both will have value depending on the project.

[Mike from OK]

If you have the knack for working with wood here are a couple of ideas...





Mike

[John SMOthermon]

Clam or Pony?...... I’m a clam kinda’’ Guy!

[James Rogers]

If you have the knack for working with wood here are a couple of ideas...





Mike

I would go with cousin Harry's timeless design that goes back to then18th century.  Make it self sprung and not involve tightening screws or anything that will catch your thread.

[James Rogers]

Thecapgunkid "Even though harness makers used forms when trying to be a shoemaker wannabee in making bags and such .  Sorry James, coffee's on me if we ever meet at Dixons."

Ha! I am perfectly happy to pay a shoemaker or bootmaker than to even think about trying to make them ; )
Indont get above the Masom Dixon Line any more than I can help it but I'm a coffee guy and Dixons would be a reason to cross over. I will look forward to that conversation when I make it up that way.

[Mike from OK]

If you have the knack for working with wood here are a couple of ideas...





Mike

I would go with cousin Harry's timeless design that goes back to then18th century.

I don't have a bandsaw like Harry does... So I guess I get to hone up my Witherby draw knife and do some thinning.

Item # 413,334 on the to-do list.

Mike

[James Rogers]

Mike,
Can you get access to a couple of barrel staves and maybe put that draw knife to them?